He proposed before my mum died | Jess Mills

Jess Mills 00:00

It was allowing me for a moment, to sort of believe in a future that could still be beautiful without her.

Holly Newson 00:09

Oh, hey, welcome to kind I am so glad you're here. I'm Holly, and I'll be chatting to guests about the times people were kind to them and how that changed things. In this episode, you'll hear how great friends can hold you through the bad and the good. By the way, you're allowed to rest. Right, let's drop you straight in. You're about to hear from Jess Mills, a writer, campaigner and musician, who is continuing her mum's legacy through the Tessa Jowell Foundation, and is creating her own two not least with her memoir We Are Each Other, which recounts her mum dying from brain cancer, while Jess herself became a mum. Jess, welcome to the podcast.

Jess Mills 00:53

Thank you for having me.

Holly Newson 00:54

I'm so excited to chat to you. I sobbed over your book. I weeped. I listened to it, which meant I was out and about. There was lots of me kind of like blinking, trying to, you know, not look too-

Jess Mills 01:10

Sorry about that.

Holly Newson 01:11

broken down. No, don't apologize. My choice to listen to it out and about, I knew what was asking for. I don't know if Eleanor, your publicist, told you that that my mum also died from brain cancer.

Jess Mills 01:24

What?

Holly Newson 01:25

Yeah.

Jess Mills 01:37

When was that?

Holly Newson 01:38

So that was three years ago, three years ago last month. But anyway, all that is to say, like, I was very excited to speak to you, and I'm aware that we're completely off mic.

Jess Mills 01:59

I want to hold your hand now.

Holly Newson 02:00

So obviously I knew I knew what I was in for. Hence the like-

Holly Newson 02:00

the huge amount of sobbing.

Jess Mills 02:00

We're going massively off grid, but we had to. Oh sweetheart.

Jess Mills 02:03

I'm so sorry.

Holly Newson 02:05

It was, it was an amazing thing to read, so thanks.

Jess Mills 02:09

Listen, we're going to have some problems here I can feel because I basically want to come and sit at your lap and cuddle you now.

Holly Newson 02:15

I would like to ask you, what does kindness mean to you?

Jess Mills 02:20

Kindness has, kindness is not being nice. It's it has more intentionality than that. I think, I think kindness is an act intended to demonstrate care and love.

Holly Newson 02:36

The intention part of it, yeah, what makes what makes you think that? What do you think is has made you come to that conclusion, that that's what kindness is?

Jess Mills 02:45

That's how it's how it feels when you receive it, and I think it's how I feel when I want to do something for somebody as well. There's an absolute intention behind that act, yeah. And I think that's what makes it feel so special at its core.

Holly Newson 02:59

Yeah. So each time someone comes on this podcast, I ask them to have a think about three times that people have done something kind for them. And you said this was very difficult to narrow it down, which is very understandable, but also a wonderful problem to have. So for your first story of kindness, I wondered if you would sort of describe what was happening in your life at the time.

Jess Mills 03:28

So I did find this question hard and in a beautiful way, not because, not because I couldn't think of any examples, but because I really in being asked that question, I suddenly had this beautiful sense of how actually acts of kindness, small and large, stitch together so much of the world as I know it actually both in my own personal, very, very personal world to my local kind of doorstep community where we live to, you know, the two, the two charities that I, you know, help run and one that I was part of the founding team of. So I think I feel very, very lucky to have that kind of multi dimensional perspective on like kindness in my life right now. But when you asked me that question, one of the first ones that I thought of in terms of something that really had a massive impact, kind of long, lasting impact for me, actually was after I had my second daughter, second baby. She's called Hero, and my first daughter, Ottie, was two and four months when she was born, and so I found out that I was pregnant with Hero the day after my mum's memorial service. And so my mom never knew her, and I. The first kind of, well, the nine months that I was pregnant was really like immediately in the Aftermath After mum died. And, you know, there's something so kind of both beautiful and devastating about that cycle of life. Because, you know, of course, she felt like such a gift. But you know that the cycle of life was just spinning very vividly in all its beauty and all its heartache. And when I did have Hero a really dear friend of mine, said that she was going to buy me a present. And I had no idea what this was. She just said clear two hours out of your diary, out of your and I was like, Well, I've literally got nothing on. Just tell me when, tell me when it's tell me what's good for you. And she said, Okay, so she put it in for like, you know, a morning one week, and she did just need to make sure you got someone to watch the girls for a couple of hours. Okay, fine. And then this absolutely incredibly gorgeous, wonderful person, woman, turned up, and she did something called a closing of the bones ceremony for me, which is basically a very sort of ancient, sort of kind of interdisciplinary, sort of ritual, really, that people have done over over the ages, to women after giving birth, which we really don't do in our culture, but it's just a fundamental way of kind of acknowledging and really honoring the huge thing that you have just been through at a mind, body, soul level. Yeah, and you know, in a practical sense I was, I just lay in a kind of darkened room, which was just stunning heaven, without anything to do. And she lit all these beautiful candles and have these beautiful oils, and then laid me on this, like, really beautiful thing on the floor, and then, just like, wrapped me up, so I felt kind of quite shrouded and, like, very, very safe, there was loads of beautiful music, and, like, no bits of touch, and it was very kind of subtle, really, but there was something so profound in it. And I just lay there with just tears, like just pouring out of my eyes, you know, my heart was just pounding in my chest, and I realized it was like So after my the birth of my first daughter, Ottie, I went through and this, I suppose this is why it was so special that, you know, having this, This this space and this beautiful little ceremony, I I had a really scary birth, and which is not uncommon, and I was basing my pregnancy was really high risk because I developed diabetes when I was pregnant, and I was told that it was so high risk that I couldn't be on the birth even in the kind of birthing center with a midwife left lead team, I had to have an obstetrician right next to the theater in the high chance that I was going to need an emergency C section. And what happened was, then I was in labor for three days at home, and then on the third day, my contractions still weren't below five minutes, every five minutes, but the protocol is that you can't come in until your contractions are at three minutes, right?

Jess Mills 08:27

So, like, day three still not below five minutes. And we called the midwife because I thought something felt like it was changing, but they said, Listen, if the contraction is still below, still at five minutes, you can't come in yet. And then what happened was, like a minute and a half after I put down the phone to midwife, I got into the bath, and then my waters broke so violently sound like a bomb had gone off on our street. Did to me anyway, and then I anyone who's given birth will know what I'm talking about here, the Middle Earth death roar just started coming out of my body, the sound that I can make, I mean, you literally sound like a cow on acid. It's like the maddest sound that you make involuntarily when you are giving birth. I was just like, Oh my God. And my husband called back the midwife, she could hear the noise I was making, and she just said, I'm not going to make it to you in time. Call 999 now you cannot be alone when this baby is delivered. And so she's like, and this is actually the first line of how the book begins. It says, Jess, can you hear me? Because it's the midwife on the on the phone to us. And so, yeah, I won't say too much more, but 20 minutes later, the paramedics arrived and the baby was born, luckily, safely. But I remember the first thought that I had. I mean me and my we I think we all knew in that moment, me, my husband, the midwife and the paramedic. Looks that we were on the kind of precipice of something potentially catastrophic, because it's quite common for just for babies of women who have diabetes, to present in very, very complicated, complicated ways. And I remember the first thought that I had as I pushed her out of my body, is, Am I dead? And then suddenly that moment is replaced with just this, the most surreal, extraordinary moment, beautiful moment of your life, which is your healthy you know, kicking, screaming, baby being placed in your arms for the first time. And at that point, you know the absolute awe and mystery and sort of cataclysm of childbirth takes center stage as well. But those feelings of you know birth for me, and I know this is very, very common, it was an absolute near death experience. And I don't say that as in, I nearly died, or I thought I was dying. All I can say is, as I pushed her out of my body, death was there, and I could feel how, how I was on the precipice of the possibility of that thing. And it was just it passed through me. And then, of course, my daughter was born, luckily, safely. But that experience doesn't leave you. And I think you know, it's well known and documented that any sort of traumatic or really, really profoundly, you know, scary event. If you're not given space to process, process and metabolize that thing healthily, will often, you know, develop into sort of disordered thinking. And that's really, definitely what happened to me, I would say, about three, three to three weeks after I had Otti, that kind of dark shadow that was there that was kind of being held at just about enough distance, mainly by this kind of completely kind of crystal, kind of clear euphoric love that you're which is like as mind altering as a drug actually, those first few weeks, you know, as that starts to kind of subside and kind of integrate, I suppose the other stuff started coming through. And for me, it was just like very, very scary, catastrophic thinking, quite intrusive thoughts, quite crippling anxiety.

Jess Mills 12:42

And luckily, it didn't stay for too long. You know, it kind of, it came in like a black cloud with kind of claws in it. And then after a couple of weeks, it started to fade. And I say luckily, because I know lots and lots of people for whom that has carried on for a very, very long time, yeah. And so when my friend bought me this present, yeah, it was, it was two hours, but I'm telling you, it was the most it was, it was a kind of transformational two hours. And I felt like, just in that two hours, I was able to kind of process and almost like grieve so much, and just it was a big, cathartic, beautiful thing, and also just felt kind of pampering and gorgeous and a big sort of shedding, if you know what I mean, yeah, because after you've had a baby, you know, everyone asks how the baby is. No one asks how you are anymore. And so it was like a beautiful way of saying, you you matter. How are you? And this is, yeah. So that was the first one, yeah.

Holly Newson 13:52

Have you ever, let me reword that, not have you ever, in what ways - because I'm sure you have - have you kind of paid that forward to other friends motherhood?

Jess Mills 14:05

I would I did, actually bought one, one of my best, best friends in the world, with her second baby i i bought her one as well. Oh no, in its in its simplest form, it's just like holding the mother, recognizing the huge thing that she has done, physically, emotionally, you know, Soul level, kind of acknowledging all of the huge range of, like, very, very big feelings and experiences that come through birth. You know, it is literally the kind of, their kind of polarity of life and death being held in one moment, yeah, just just the whole thing. And I think it's just a beautiful way of you all of that feeling seen, not taken for granted, and just a moment just to think, yeah, well, I did that.

Holly Newson 14:57

Can you tell me a time that someone did something kind for you?

Harry 15:03

So when I was at university, just after our first day, we had a lecturer from the person called George Merritt, who's a videographer. I got so inspired by his conversation, I messaged him on LinkedIn and said, Hey, love your conversation. Love to have a chat, maybe a shadowing opportunity. He messaged me back that same evening. He said, Are you free tomorrow? I was like, Absolutely. He basically drove me to Southampton University for a shoot he was doing the next day, and I've kept in contact with him ever since he gave me so many opportunities. And it's one of the best moments of my university career.

Holly Newson 15:36

That's incredible. And so what impact did that have on you? This this guy being like, yeah, straight away, let's do it.

Harry 15:43

I think it inspired me to do the same thing for other people. I think, you know, whenever I get an opportunity for myself, I try and not lift opportunities for other people as well, just to show everyone the same kindness that he showed me.

Holly Newson 15:55

That is beautiful. Thank you, Harry.

Holly Newson 15:57

And so moving on to your second story of kindness. With this story, I wondered if you would begin by maybe just briefly describing your relationship with your mum?

Jess Mills 16:13

Oh, I would say that the relationship with my mum is probably the kind of single, most defining relationship of my life. It's kind of like the central pillar from which everything else has kind of grown around. And, you know, I have a beautiful relationship with my dad as well. I've got an amazing dad who I adore. I think there's something about the relationship between mothers and daughters which is very unique, and my mum in particular, had a very kind of character defining ability to create a feeling of intimacy in her relationships, in her personal life, in her friendships and in her professional life as well. And she was a member of parliament for Dalit and West Norwood and South East London for 23 years, and she was an outstanding MP very much because of this way in which she absolutely connected with and saw people in their humanity and cared about people one by one, yeah. You know, you take that and then multiply it by a million, and that's what it's like to be her daughter, yeah. So, you know, she was with me when ottie was born, and then we were really together pretty much most days in those first kind of weeks, until she suddenly collapsed out of the blue, and then we were told she was terminally ill. Yeah, yeah.

Holly Newson 17:45

And so knowing that you were losing your mum, that she was dying, tell me what it was like when your partner Finn decided to propose to you, and what that meant to you?

Jess Mills 17:57

Yeah. So this is my second act of kindness, and when I say kind, I don't mean as if, like he proposed because he was out of pity. That would be quite that would be quite cringe, as my kids say "tragical." That would be quite tragical, mummy, if that he proposed to you out of pity, I hope not! No, so it wasn't tragical and out of pity. So we've been together for a very long time, and you know, we'd lived together basically since our first date, and we already had a baby together. And, you know, I think we sort of knew we would get married at some point, but it wasn't like something we were kind of like desperate, desperately needed to do immediately. But, you know, within the context of, you know, having someone at the center of the family who really had a very, very finite amount of time left as a family, then time and what you do with it becomes like an ultimate task of living. Yeah, I certainly felt like that. But I think Finn did too, because he proposed to me. So the summer that I'd had ot basically, which is also the summer that mum was diagnosed, yeah, and he didn't need to say it to me at the time because he didn't need to, but I know that he did it then for that reason. Yeah, and then, really, that, you know, us getting engaged within the context of, you know, you know, mum's terminal illness. It just did create this kind of beautiful other track, yeah, to life. And it created this kind of Horizon point, yeah. Beyond the inevitability of her death, yeah. And this beautiful sense, actually, of how much life was still of how much life would still continue, yeah. And it created a completely different kind of horizon in the most beautiful way. And he, I remember, he said to me, it was just a few hours before he proposed, that evening, we were actually out for dinner, me and him and Otti, and he said to me, I just want you to know that whatever happens, you're going to be okay. Do you know that? And at the time, I was just, I was just internally so beside myself that and I honestly just didn't, I couldn't, I just could not imagine what life was going to be without her. And when he said that to me, I remember feeling this like horrible sense, a kind of a horrible, kind of contracting, of just feeling like irritably, like I wanted to say just, you know, well, something really lame, like, you know, it's easy for you to say that something that's what I felt like I didn't I just, I kind of held my tongue, because I could see in his expression that, again, he was what he was saying was an act of kindness, yeah, and it was allowing me, for a moment, to sort of believe In a future that could still be beautiful without her, and which he was ultimately right about,

Holly Newson 21:28

yeah, yeah.

Jess Mills 21:30

And then, and then throughout that, you know, after so we got, we got engaged that summer, kind of early autumn, and then we'd plan the wedding for the following year, in July, probably combination of sort of being like deluding ourselves and being overly optimistic. But then by the beginning of that year, it was clear that, you know, her cancer was progressing very, very fast, yeah. And my mum's cancer was in the speech and language center of her brain, which meant it was kind of decimating her ability to speak and form coherent language really fast. And by the beginning of February, or something, mid February, it was we had absolutely no certainty whatsoever of how long we had, and that kind of unlocked the next kind of act of kindness in this sort of chain of kindnesses that Finn, I feel like, sparked with his proposal, which was then my dad and my brother just calling up one day and saying, and again, they didn't need To say why, but just like, listen, I think we need to, I think it'd be really good idea to bring the wedding forward and do it soon, and do it really soon. And because the wedding we planned for the following summer, it was gonna be a big, like country like wedding, sort of big, sort of humdinger in a field type thing. And so we're always going to have to do, like, a smaller legal part of the wedding. Anyway, they said, let's bring that bit forward, but just make it more, you know, let's put more into it. Let's go for a lovely like lunch and invite more people and, like, have a little party after and stuff. And the next availability that the registry office office could do it was like, two weeks later, and they were just like, listen, I think we should do it. We're gonna all rally, we're gonna make sure it's amazing. Yeah. And they did. They did and it was, and you know,

Holly Newson 23:34

What did that day feel like to have everyone there?

Jess Mills 23:39

It was, it was just one of the most beautiful, incredible days ever. And actually, not in not in spite of what was happening, but almost because of it, you know, you know, a day like that, in the context of what we were living with at the time, you know, I kind of think of it as almost like, like the most beautiful ray of like, golden sunshine, like sort of biblical sunshine, yeah, being cast through black clouds, you know, which is even more golden and beautiful because of the darkness that surrounds it, actually, yeah. And, you know, talk about acts of kindness. You know, one of my best friends who's the most beautiful jeweler, Emma Franklin, she like, as a surprise, like, made me my wedding ring in two weeks, which was not fucking easy to do, and I had no idea she was doing it. So we were all like, it's fine, we'll just get like, a little silly, like, like a little joke, one for the ceremony. And then when the when they panned out the wedding rings, this beautiful ring that she'd made me was, I mean, she's such a metaphor, yeah, and my other best friend had, like, helped design, like, a wedding and made a wedding dress for. Me, like it was just my other best friends were, like, you know, just everyone just rallying to kind of make it fun and brilliant. And my, like, best, other best girls, like, came and stayed with me the night before, and then, like, we all got ready together in the day. And they know, lots of them had known my mom their whole lives as well. So this was a huge day for them. And there was, there was tears, there was so much laughter, there was lots of getting really smashed, having loads of fun. And, you know, I think we sort of crawled in at about six in the morning, you know, just feeling elated and so full of love and gratitude. Yeah, you know the kind of the flip side of, kind of the desperate sadness of kind of anticipatory grief, I think, is gratitude. And it's, I don't know if you felt that with your mum?

Holly Newson 25:52

Yeah, I do think everything has felt stronger, because in that time you you need to be held so much. And I think it's that, for me, it was like the need was so strong that if someone could actually respond to that level of need, then, yeah, then the gratitude is huge, because it's like I needed this, like I needed this. So, yeah, definitely.

Ann 26:28

Hi, Holly. My story of kindness happened last year. I had an unfortunate accident where I fell down the stairs and I had two black eyes, big lump on my forehead, and I'd spent a couple of days just with ice, just trying to get the swelling down. My family and friends said you really should go to to A&E and see about it. So I went in, I was still feeling quite shaky and wasn't really feeling up to blood tests and X rays and all the rest of it, and I was just sat there feeling a little bit sorry for myself. I texted friends, and they were very happy that I had decided to go to a&e to get everything just checked out. Anyway, I was just sat there, and then the next thing my friend turned up. I just said, What are you doing here? And she said, Oh, I just couldn't let you go through this on your own. And she actually sat with me for she was there over four hours while I had to go through all the checkups and everything. And I just couldn't believe how kind she was, because she'd actually arranged to meet a friend that day, and she sort of canceled it and say, Look, my friend really needs me, and that really is, you know, such a brilliant friend. And she, you know, I just said, I, I don't know how I can thank you just, just for being there with me. And she said, Well, that's just what friends are for you.

Holly Newson 28:15

I think actually what you were saying about your friends leads us really nicely onto your third story of kindness, yeah, which is, well, I'll let you explain, but maybe tell me how much your girlfriends mean to you?

Jess Mills 28:36

I mean, where do you begin? You know the other, the girls in my life, the women in my life, are like the other big, big loves of my life. You know, our friendships, you know, span my whole life. Yeah, you know, literally my oldest, oldest best friends, Belle and Mond, I've had since I was well, Belle, since I was one month, since I was six. And then, you know, so many best friends that have, you know, throughout different areas of life, actually, and you know, so I've got my, like, core best friends that I've literally had since I was, you know, tiny, tiny. But then you know, I have other best, truly best friends who I feel like I've known for my whole life, who I've met in the last three years, five years, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years. And that's just one of the most beautiful gifts about kind of growing older in life, like living more life, is how you see that you know you can, how you can just continue to find these like life defining friendships at every stage and era of life. Yeah, and you know, I would say the kind of the dailiness of those relationships and how we have, just like fundamentally shaped each other's identities. You know, all the big rites of passage have been done. Like together, yeah, and there's one friend in particular who's also called Jess Yes, we both got the same name and the same initials, because she's JM she's actually JMW, but, and we met when we were six, and we went to primary school together. Secondary School, six from college, they went traveling around the world together. Wow. They went to uni together and lived together for three years, then moved out, and then lived together for 10 years, upstairs, downstairs from each other, in these flats. And then I moved in with Finn. She moved in with her husband, yeah. Then we had our girls on the same day,

Holly Newson 30:39

What?!

Jess Mills 30:41

And then the year that mum that got diagnosed with terminal cancer, her amazing dad also got diagnosed with terminal cancer, and then the following year they both died,

Holly Newson 30:53

Oh my gosh.

Jess Mills 30:54

And so we've got this, like crazy, crazy kind of synchronous living in parallel. So where the book begins, where we are each other, begins in the scene where I'm literally giving birth to ottie down the road. My best mate was also giving birth to her daughter. So yeah, there's another story to be told if I was to write another book, which I would love to do, that the thing around, yeah, female friendships and writing that, writing that, it feels quite alive to me.

Holly Newson 31:25

Yeah. And what little acts of kindness would you say that your friends do for you?

Jess Mills 31:32

Oh, my God, like it's just, it's the dailyness. It's like checking in. We check in most days, we totally spoil each other on each of our birthdays. We've done that literally since we were kids. I'm trying to think like, for example, being a teenager, like 17, going out on a date with a boyfriend. And I remember once my best mate, Jess, had been out shopping with her mum for a birthday, and I was going out on a date with a boy, and I was like, I need something to wear. Yeah, did I wear my new birthday clothes? And I was like, yeah, definitely. And she bought these nice new knickers and bras as well. And I was like, literally, went out wearing her knickers, bras, trousers, tops, hair, yeah, you look wicked. It's that thing where you just book just become like, almost like, indivisible, yeah? What relationship? No, I know. And then, you know, there's Yeah, so many. It's the daily Ness as well as the big acts of kindness. For example, my best friends, surprisingly, making my wedding ring, yeah, along to the daily check ins of how you are, the kind of, the kind of friendships that become like the most intimate witness on who you are on a daily basis. And you know, that kind of spanning all the areas of life, yeah. And I actually think, when I think about my girls, I think, like, what are the if I could guarantee them two things in life? What would that be? Other than obviously, like health and like knowing they're gonna, like, that obvious one? Yeah, it would be female friendships. Like friendships like deep, beautiful, unconditional friendships and having something having a passion, like having a passion something which is your absolute your thing that you absolutely love, that is your purpose. I think if you have those two things, ultimately, even if or when, inevitably, hard things happen in life. I just think those two things will see you through.

Holly Newson 33:55

Yeah, I think that's a really good reflection on like sounds really bold, but like, almost like the meaning of life, like, what is it? It's like, it's connection and passion and purpose, totally, yeah.

Jess Mills 34:09

And, you know, in the end, when there's always beautiful testimonials that I've read of these, honestly, angels who do, like, end of life care, there are literal angels, yeah. I mean, I don't know what your experience was with your mum, but with us, the people that were with us at the end from with mum, are actual angels, yeah. And had it was like a very, very sort of life defining experience. I mean, that the legacy of them enabling and supporting her and us for her to have. Yeah, what could have? You know, the most like gentle and beautiful death possible, given the context, is such a profound gift to someone. And again, another act of kindness. Yeah, for sure, often end of life nurses will say when people on their. Are deathbeds. Nobody's saying wish I just made my money. Yeah, fucking wish I'd been a bit more successful. Nobody says that, yeah. Everybody that the common thread is, have I loved enough? Did I care about people enough? And was I, you know, and I was I loved in return? And this is what it all comes down to, yeah, you know.

Holly Newson 35:24

And so to close the episode-

Jess Mills 35:26

We don't have to finish do we?

Holly Newson 35:32

We do I'm afraid.

Jess Mills 35:32

I'm just getting started! No I'm joking. I could stay and sit here and talk to you all day. Can you tell?

Holly Newson 35:34

What is the kindest thing that you have ever done for yourself?

Jess Mills 35:40

Oh, good question.

Holly Newson 35:44

Or it can be a kind thing, it doesn't have to be the kindest.

Jess Mills 35:47

The kind thing, think of the kindest! That's quite- Yeah, I don't know if it's the kindest, but I think a really important kind thing that I did for myself was to allow myself to be honest about how I was feeling postnatally, and to tell my mum, to tell my husband and to tell my best friend, because I think I felt such shame at Feeling those things, I found it very, very hard to tell anyone, and also, the longer that I didn't tell anyone, the worse it got. And I would say the kindest thing I did was to, was to for myself, was to tell my husband and my mom how I was feeling. And that was massively shifted the whole experience, I would say, within a kind of couple of weeks. Yeah. And so, you know, I think it's really, really important for new mums, or for any woman post native, whether it's your first child or more, just to know that everything that you are feeling is completely normal, and all of the beauty, all of the light, Joy stuff, also the darker, chaotic, more overwhelming or intimidating stuff that you can feel is all completely normal. And if you do feel like that, then, honestly, the kindest thing that I think you can do for yourself is to talk to somebody as well. Because for me, that was a big shift.

Holly Newson 37:30

Well, Jess, I know we could have talked for hours about so many things. Thank you so much for joining me and for sharing your stories.

Jess Mills 37:38

Yeah, thank you for having me.

Music 37:42

Hey, hold on. I'll stay here till it goes.

Holly Newson 37:50

Thank you so much for listening. You being here and your support means so much to me, just as experiences have quite a few parallels to mine, and if you two need a moment to connect with your grief, or maybe you want to understand the ways grief might feel for others. Or maybe you just fancy some beautiful prose go and give We Are Each Other, Jess's book, a read or a listen. This episode is dedicated to anyone who has made life's milestones even more meaningful. Maybe share the episode with one of those people in your life, or someone else who might enjoy it. I would also love to hear a story from you about a time someone was kind to you, so send that in at kindpodcast.com or you can email me holly@kindpodcast.com and I will feature some of the stories on the show. If you like the show. Hit, subscribe, hit, follow, give it a rating, a review, it helps me a lot. It was great to spend time with you. Speak soon.

Music 38:49

Hey dream on and let your heart unfold.