She showed me I wasn't alone | Jennifer Wallace

Jennifer Wallace  00:00

Literally dropped out of the sky to give me a water and what that moment told me was that we are not alone. There are people, even strangers, who could be there to help us get back up.

Holly Newson  00:15

Oh, hey, welcome to kind I am so glad you're here. I'm Holly, and I'll be chatting to guests about the times people were kind to them and how that changed things. In this episode, you'll hear how giving your life more meaning could be just one 'thank you' away. By the way, you're courageous, right? Let's drop you straight in.

Holly Newson  00:40

You're about to hear from Jennie Wallace, a journalist and author who explores why it's so important to feel that we matter, and how we can get more of that in our lives. Jennie, welcome!

Jennifer Wallace  00:50

Thanks for having me.

Holly Newson  00:51

So to start off with, what does being kind mean to you?

Jennifer Wallace  00:57

Being kind means being aware of the people in our lives, strangers, family, friends, even ourselves, and looking for ways to make their lives better, even in small ways.

Holly Newson  01:13

And are there every day like little acts of kindness that mean a lot to you? And if so, what are they?

Jennifer Wallace  01:19

Yeah, little acts of making eye contact with with a stranger you know, greeting someone when you walk into an elevator and saying hello, ensuring that people around me don't feel invisible.

Holly Newson  01:31

Do you get weird looks sometimes when you start speaking to people in a lift or an elevator?

Jennifer Wallace  01:36

I don't even notice them anymore. Maybe I do, but I mean, over the seven years that I've been researching this book, I've become just so accustomed -

Holly Newson  01:45

So your book Mattering,

Jennifer Wallace  01:47

My book Mattering- I've just become so accustomed to to greeting people that I don't even, that I don't feel the discomfort anymore.

Holly Newson  01:56

Yeah. So each time a guest comes on the show, I ask them to have a think of three times people have done something kind for them. So I wondered, would you start by introducing me to Katie and Tira?

Jennifer Wallace  02:06

Yes, so Katie and Tira I met 30 years ago, maybe 25 years ago, when I was working on the TV show 60 minutes, and our days were very, very busy, but we became deep, close friends, and I refer to them often as the corner men, or the corner people in my life, people who really invested in me in my in my 20s, when I was building my career, building my sense of self, building a life in this world. And they they are and were two critical pieces of it.

Holly Newson  02:44

What are they each like as people?

Jennifer Wallace  02:45

So Tira is very outgoing, very much an extrovert, an only child. And I say this only because only children often get, you know, mischaracterized as being selfish or self-centered, and she's the opposite. She is other-oriented. She's always looking out and seeing what people need in their lives or what they're going through, highly empathic, just a very kind soul, the person you want, cheering you on or comforting you when you're going through a setback.

Holly Newson  03:23

And what about Katie?

Jennifer Wallace  03:25

So Katie was someone when you when you met her, you felt this instant sunshine, this, I can't describe it to you. She looked like a California girl, which means blonde hair, blue eyes, but she also emitted this warmth and kindness that just when she was looking at you, there was like a bright light shining on you. She was someone - I'm using her in the past because she passed away two years ago - but she was someone that you wanted to earn her friendship. You wanted to be worthy of her friendship.

Holly Newson  04:04

And so at this point in your career when this kind thing happened, where were you? What was going on in your life?

Jennifer Wallace  04:12

Actually, I very much credit them with helping me build out my career post children. So I left 60 minutes, but my friendship with them endured. We I moved to London, I was freelancing, and then when I moved back to the US, we resumed our monthly dinners, Katie, Tira and I. And I remember one of those first dinners, I said to them, you know, I want to go back to work, but TV scheduling is not going to work with my children and my husband's busy job filled with travel, and so I said, I want to go back to print, but I don't know how. I don't know how to be a print journalist, from a TV journalist, and Katie and Tira said, Well, we're going to hold you accountable - the next time you meet us for dinner, next month, we want you to have five stories, five story ideas. We will talk them through with you, but come prepared. And so Katie and Tira would, you know, we checked in with each other almost daily. And Katie would say, how are those pitches coming along? And so anyway, a month later, we're sitting at dinner, and I reveal the pitches, and we talk about them, we talk them through. And Katie said, next month, by next month, I want you to have sent out all of these pitches to newspapers and magazines, and I'll help you write them. I'll help you write the pitch and so they have kept me accountable really through my entire career. So they were being in my corner and investing in me and holding me accountable. They were friends who weren't afraid to tell me things that maybe I didn't want to hear, give me that critical feedback that I wanted. But to me, that's become, really, in my mind, one of the kindest things someone can do for me, which is to say the thing I need to hear, even if I don't want to hear it.

Holly Newson  06:01

Can you think of anything that they said to you at any point where you were like, I didn't, I don't. I know you're right, but -

Jennifer Wallace  06:08

I mean, I think it was just in- I'm trying to think if there's a specific example, well, yeah, I didn't want to insert my story. So as a journalist, we are told to report on the story, not to be the story, but Katie and Tierra felt very strongly in my writing that it would be, it would hit the reader much stronger if I was a little vulnerable and talked about how the issues I was writing about impacted my own life. So I did not want to do that, but I think they were right. And I will tell you, I think it was in revealing my own story, in my writing, but in my books that has, it's enabled people to really connect with the material and with me.

Holly Newson  06:53

Yeah, they understand you. They it's that, that element of openness, isn't it, which, like you say, goes against the classic journalistic principles. Like you are as objective as you can be. You know you're telling the story. You're not the story, but it can- I also feel like in a in a world where, I don't know, with the way that we interact with people, the way work is structured, the way technology is structured. We're all craving that, aren't we? We're craving to to really understand someone, not just understand a story. So when, I don't know, personally, I know when I read things always connect to it more when I'm like, a little bit of the writer is yes, you know, coming through,

Jennifer Wallace  07:39

I agree with you, and when I- the same thing, when I read books, it's it's the revelations, it's the little moments of vulnerability that, and I've come to think of it that if you've ever tried to put a yellow post, it on a slick surface, it does not stay stuck. It needs a little bit of grit. And I think that's what, as a writer, revealing a little bit of your life allows for people to stick with the material and to get a little sticky with you.

Holly Newson  08:13

Yeah, that's a lovely metaphor. I like that a lot. And so Katie and Tira, you know, they're your corner people. How did it feel at this particular time when you know you're re entering the workforce, taking a slightly different angle, to have someone, two people who really have your back?

Jennifer Wallace  08:31

Well, I will tell you, through any life transition, our resilience, whether it's going back to work, whether it's starting a new kind of job, our resilience is really rooted in the resilience of our relationships. So I know for me, Katie and Tira were people who really fortified me through life transitions. They were the they were the calls that I would make, aside from my sister Natalie, who's also a best friend, those were the three people in my life that I would call in any twist and turn, knowing that they had my back, that they were so fully invested in me and my success and well being, and that's what kind of makes you feel sturdy, even when life shifts the floor from under you.

Holly Newson  09:17

Yeah, completely.

Holly Newson  09:26

Can you tell me a story of a time someone did something kind for you?

Zayd  09:30

Yes, I can. So I worked in a bakery for about three months. It's really nice. I got unwell with quite a lot of the staff. I didn't even get on well with this one girl, but when I was leaving on my last day, on my second to last day, she brought me a card and got really teary, and basically signed a card with, like, really nice message saying, like, how she missed me and stuff. It was only her and another person who signed it. Yeah, it was just really sweet.

Holly Newson  09:55

And that's a short time to work somewhere, but you clearly made a big impact on a couple of people. What do you think you did?

Zayd  10:01

I think, I think because it was a bakery, and we're getting up so early, I don't know, I just kind of like, let loose. And I think I just showed myself quite a lot, and especially in that three month period where I knew I was gonna move to London after that, so I kind of just was, like, super vulnerable. And I think through that, I just kind of gained these friendships that were really sweet and very like, down to earth,

Holly Newson  10:22

And when you got that card, how did that feel?

Zayd  10:25

Yeah, great. Because I also got one the same day for my granny, saying, oh, good luck in London. So, like, yeah, it was, it was nice. It was nice to know that, like, oh, people like, look out for me. Obviously, people do. But you know, to be reminded of that was nice.

Holly Newson  10:49

So moving on to the second kind act you received. Tell me about the call that you had just had in this moment.

Jennifer Wallace  11:00

So Katie, who we were just talking about, was diagnosed with stage four ovarian cancer. She and I were together when she got that diagnosis. We were in the hospital together, and so it was something that I was very much in her corner. I was there the minute she got the diagnosis, and for five years, we were on that journey together, and I was on vacation with my family, and I was sitting in a park and Katie- the treatments had stopped working, and we knew this day would come. We had hoped it wouldn't, but I got the call from her that she was going to stop treatment and go into hospice. And really, just two weeks before then we had been talking about experimental treatments, there was still hope, and in that moment, the hope was taken away.

Jennifer Wallace  12:00

And I knew in that moment what she needed to hear was someone who said to her, you have done so much. Katie has two boys, and when she first got that diagnosis, the first thing she said was, my boys. I need to be there for my boys and and so I knew what she needed to hear when she was placing that call with me. Was permission to stop. Was permission to say, Katie, you've done it. You your goal was to raise your voice with your husband. And you have done it. You have raised those boys. Those boys have a blueprint from you. And so I stayed strong in the call. I hung up the phone and completely broke down in a in a garden, and out of nowhere, a woman named Robin came to me and said, put her hand on my shoulder, really out of nowhere. It was a no one was in the garden, and out of nowhere, she put her hand on my shoulder, and she said, I have this bottled water. Can I give it to you? And and I said, Yes, and she didn't ask for more. She didn't ask what was wrong. She was just there, literally dropped out of the sky to give me a water and and what that moment told me was that we're always surrounded that again, it's it's the story of resilience, that we are not alone in this world, and there are people, even strangers, who could be there to to help us get back up. Yeah.

Holly Newson  13:38

And when you were on that call being strong for Katie, what was going through your head?

Jennifer Wallace  13:48

What was going through my head was it was tuning in. I was trying really hard as I, as I tried to over those five years, was as she was going through various treatments, was to be able to quiet my own head and my own needs and to tune in to what she needed in that moment,

Holly Newson  14:14

And obviously Robin, stranger with with a water bottle, came out of nowhere. Who else were you surrounding yourself with at that time to be the people who could notice what you needed?

Jennifer Wallace  14:27

Well, my Tira, yeah, of course. Who was who was struggling just like me, my family, my my husband and my children who were so close to Katie, they'd known her their entire lives, and for those five years, Katie was a priority in our family. So anytime she called, anytime she needed me, despite what we were doing as a family, we knew I was going to take that call, and my kids wanted Katie to be the priority. And so. We almost were in it together as a family. And when I received that call, I went back to the room, and all my three children and my husband tuned in to me. They my husband, the first thing he said to me is, I know it's the call you've been dreading. I know it's the call you've been dreading? And in that moment, I was grateful. I was grateful that I'd had the five years with Katie. I was grateful that she had reached a goal, which was to raise her kids, and I was grateful to be surrounded by people who also had the ability to tune in and realize that what I needed in that moment wasn't wasn't cheering up, it was just to be met and to be seen and heard and validated.

Holly Newson  15:48

Yeah. And so when you were telling your story before about Tira and Katie, you said that Katie was like a ray of sunshine. Would you tell me a bit more about her?

Jennifer Wallace  15:57

Oh my gosh, Katie, I'll tell you about her, and I think a story that really exemplifies who Katie was, was the day she got the diagnosis. So we'd gone to the emergency room, she'd had stomach issues, and so we went to the emergency room, and we waited and waited and waited for results. We were there for several hours, and when Katie finally did get the results, which honestly came out of nowhere, we were not expecting them. With ovarian cancer, it happens all at once. You don't get really many symptoms. And so the first thing Katie said was, oh my goodness, my boys. And then she looked up with the tears in her eyes, and she thanked the doctors for staying late to deliver her the diagnosis in person. It was at this point, it was 10 o'clock at night, and she had gone to the emergency room about two or three, so it was several hours and the doctors had stayed to deliver the news in person. Then as we were leaving, she thanked the nurses who had been so kind and bringing her tea and soup while she was waiting for results. And then we went into the Uber and through the tears, she was saying how grateful she was that she worked in a workplace that would understand that she needed treatments, and they would stand by her and grateful for her husband and her strong network of friends, and through the tears, through the tears and the shock of the diagnosis, she just kept saying, I feel so lucky. I feel so lucky. And that is that is Katie, that in the darkest moments, her sunlight, her light shined through and and she was able to really feel gratitude at such a deep level. It was the most tremendous coping strategy I'd ever witnessed. Yeah, and there was this phrase that when she first got the diagnosis, I had a pillow made from from a creator on Etsy, that was a quote from a poem, something like in this life, we all have to walk up the mountain. We can complain about the steepness and the soreness of our feet, or we can sing as we climb. Katie chose to sing.

Holly Newson  18:30

What a beautiful way to kind of look at the world and to deal with such a you know, an awful like, an awful thing to happen in your life, for her to see it with the sentiment of, gosh, I'm lucky.

Jennifer Wallace  18:44

Yes, it's amazing, and that that was a gift that she gave to her kids and her boys, who I remain close with, they also feel the gratitude, yeah.

Holly Newson  18:57

And so do you think that you - and I get the sense from what you said at the start of the show that you do - but do you think that you act a bit like a Robin now you know, that you're on the lookout for how you can step in and make someone feel less alone?

Jennifer Wallace  19:18

I think that's a good, I've never thought about it that way, but I think that certainly with what I've gone through with Katie and the research that I've done for my books over the last seven years, I have come to realize that the goal of life is to matter, and the way we Matter is by being on the lookout for small needs, big needs, and then using whatever time talent or treasure we have to meet those needs. And sometimes it's just to meet someone with warmth, like Katie used to do, strangers with warmth. We are struggling so much in the world today. We. Are feeling so alone. We are feeling so isolated that I've come to believe that we all have a responsibility to be the bridge to reconnect. And the way we reconnect is by looking for these small moments and filling them, yeah, and it could be small. I mean, on my way here, the driver who was set to pick me up had hit traffic and was having such a hard day, he was 10 minutes late to pick me up, and you could hear how frantic he was in his voice, right? This is his job. His job is to arrive on time and bring people places on time. And I got into the car and I said, it's okay. I said, this is this is fine. Being 10 minutes late is totally fine. And he sighed, and his shoulders went down, and he said, thanks for that. And so we can all meet those moments with kindness. And you know, there's a great quote that's attributed to Mother Teresa, something like, we can all do great things, but we can all do small things with great love, and that's how I've come to see life.

Holly Newson  21:07

Yeah, the little interactions, those moments matter, because I think it's never to be underestimated, just how someone can go about their day, go about their work life, and feel like, Oh, no one cares. And then the smallest comment, the smallest acknowledgement, can completely switch something, can switch a day, can switch a week, can switch a month to be like, oh, oh no, it's okay.

Jennifer Wallace  21:32

That's right.

Jennifer Wallace  21:33

And then it ripples, yeah. So the next one, the next person that gets into that car doesn't have a frazzled driver, they have someone who was met with civility and kindness, and they can extend the kindness out. I've come to realize in in sort of this, this path that I'm taking towards mattering, I've come to realize that anger and hostility and incivility is contagious, but kindness is more contagious, yeah, kindness can stamp this out, and it is done by one small action at a time.

Holly Newson  22:07

Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

Holly Newson  22:16

Can you think of a time that someone was kind to you?

Speaker 2  22:21

I suppose I can only think of recent events, like when somebody talks to you. For instance, we had a lunch the other day, and it was exceptional in that the man there at the counter spoke to us because it was Mexican place, and we start talking about Mexico with him, and that was, that was nice, and it sort of makes your day, to an extent, because majority of people, it's just a transaction, you know, passing over the money for the item. Maybe that qualifies.

Holly Newson  22:53

It definitely does human connection. Yeah.

Holly Newson  23:04

So moving on to your third kind act, which is actually lots of kind acts, in a way. So your most recent book, Mattering, tell me how you felt just before it was going to be published.

Jennifer Wallace  23:18

Well, the way you feel just before anything you write is going to make it out into the world. You hope that what you intended to say hits and resonates with people in the way you hoped it would. And so there's always a little trepidation, and there's always a little fear. But like we said earlier, my resilience rests on my people, and so I bring my people close to me. So, you know, when I was launching both books, I kept my people very close. They were in the audience, you know, the days that I was promoting the book. So anyway, with, with fear and hope, yeah, and, and so that's, that's what I went into this was book launch with, yeah,

Holly Newson  24:05

And so the moment it, it comes out, and you start to get the responses in, what sort of things were you receiving?

Jennifer Wallace  24:14

I was struck by how many people so quickly related to the idea of mattering. So the first excerpt came out a couple of weeks before the book launched in the Wall Street Journal. And I heard when I tell you, I receive dozens of emails a day, dozens through my website, that actually I've hired someone who is so lovely, her name is Grace, because I can't respond to everyone, and I want everyone to know I get their letters. I read every one of them, but I can't, because of the book tour, respond individually to every one of them. That grace does that for me, but I have read every single response. And I have been I've just been floored that what mattering, the concept of mattering, has given them, is a language for expressing what is missing in their lives, what makes life feel so cold and hard, but also what makes life feel so beautiful and so these individual emails, I mean, just one I got last night saying, I want you to know it's changed my life. I want you to know that learning about this concept has reoriented me. I receive emails from people who've gone through retirement or in the midst of a big transition, facing an empty nest, having lost their jobs, lost a loved one, the letters have been just very, very personal, but they have all had this underlying message that mattering is what can bring us back to ourselves.

Holly Newson  25:59

And so that concept of mattering that's resonated so widely, will you explain a little bit more about what it is?

Jennifer Wallace  26:06

Yes, so mattering is the idea that we are valued for who we are deep inside, and that we have value to add to the world around us. And our sense of mattering, I argue, in the book, has eroded the places you know our daily lives were once baked in with daily signals of mattering, the kindness of a neighbor, being met in a workplace that recognized our value and connected us to our impact, being part of a embedded in a wider community that would miss us if we weren't there, the idea that we are not going through this world alone. So many people are lacking that today, relationships have eroded. Workplaces make us feel invisible, replaceable, and so what mattering, what the book of mattering does is it, it talks about people who have that feeling of mattering eroded, and how they built it back, and how we can all build that back, and how mattering is a universal human need that every single person on this earth has to feel valued by our family, our friends, our workplaces, our communities, and to be able to add value back in those different contexts.

Holly Newson  27:18

What is a way - I mean, obviously it depends on the circumstance completely - but what is the way that someone can build back that sense? If they feeling at the moment like, like maybe they don't matter, what could they do?

Jennifer Wallace  27:29

I would want them to know that you are one decision, one action away from mattering again. And it could be as small as meeting a stranger with kindness. It could be as small as holding a door, telling someone that they look smart. It is being it is. It is meeting someone, maybe who's acting out, who's who's acting a bit angry with compassion instead of judgment. It is. It is, it is meeting a taxi driver who's had a really rough day with kindness and saying, I appreciate you. I know this traffic is rough, and I appreciate how you're holding it all together for us in this car. So really meeting people where they are with a moment of kindness that lets them say, I see you, I value you. You matter. That is how we can matter again, right?

Holly Newson  28:29

By showing other people that they matter. So it's almost like a mirror image. If you, if you put the energy into making someone else feel like they matter, then it comes right back to you.

Jennifer Wallace  28:41

Truly the fastest way to feel like you matter is to show someone else that they do.

Holly Newson  28:48

And so kindness and mattering, we have talked about them together. But how do they go together?

Jennifer Wallace  28:54

So I would say kindness is a way of expressing to someone that they matter. And unfortunately, the opposite of kindness, incivility, rudeness, is a way of sending someone a signal that they don't matter. And so, you know, yes, so kindness is the action that it's the mechanism for letting someone know they matter.

Holly Newson  29:21

And so in receiving all of those, you know, the responses to the book has that changed our own sense of mattering.

Jennifer Wallace  29:29

Oh, sure. I mean, there I actually talk about in the book how we are so often disconnected from the impact that we make in the world, not because people don't want to tell us, but often we underestimate what telling someone how they've impacted us can really energize and offer that sense of meaning and purpose in the other person's life. And by receiving these letters every day, it just fortifies me. It and. Energizes me to continue writing, to continue sharing this message, knowing that it resonates people, taking that that small step in connecting me to my impact has it's very transformative.

Holly Newson  30:16

Yeah, amazing. And so my final question to you, what is the kindest thing you have ever done for yourself?

Jennifer Wallace  30:24

Yes, that is something that I think we often struggle with. So I will offer anyone listening a practice that I've adopted since list, since researching mattering, and that is every day while you're brushing your teeth, think about what is one small need that I have today, that I can meet so I can show up as my best self, for myself and for the people who depend on me. That could be calling a friend for 30 minutes, or calling my sister or going for a walk in the park, or it could be sitting and having a delicious cup of tea, reading a book and getting cozy. I think of it not just as mothering ourselves, but grandmothering ourselves. I think we can start thinking about what are the ways that we've received kindness from people, and how can we do that for ourselves? How can we meet one small need every day so that we can show up as our best self, for ourselves and for the people around us?

Holly Newson  31:28

What was yours today?

Jennifer Wallace  31:29

Today, mine is walking in Hyde Park.

Holly Newson  31:32

Nice, very, very good choice. I love, love getting into a park,

Jennifer Wallace  31:38

Me too. And Hyde Park is so special, and I used to walk with my kids, so it's very nostalgic for me, but listening to a book on tape and walking through the park is that's, that's the small need I'm going to meet today.

Holly Newson  31:51

Yeah. Well, I loved listening to Mattering. I did listen to it was delightful. Thank you so much for sharing your stories and for coming on the show. It has been such a joy. Thank you.

Jennifer Wallace  32:00

Thanks for having me.

Music  32:02

Hey, hold on. I'll stay here till it goes.

Holly Newson  32:10

Thank you so much for listening. You being here and your support means so much to me. The little things we do and say really have the power to help other people out, don't they? I mean, I know, I know that, but chatting to Jenny definitely brought it front of mind, and I'm honored to have been introduced to Katie through Jenny as well. This episode is dedicated to anyone who tells you the tough truths when you need to hear them. Maybe share the episode with one of those people in your life or someone else who might enjoy it. I would also love to hear a story from you about a time someone was kind to you. So send me a voice note at kindpodcast.com or you can email me Holly@kindpodcast.com and I will feature some of the stories on the show. If you like the show, hit, subscribe, hit, follow, give it a comment, a rating, a review. It helps me a lot. It was great to spend time with you, speak soon!

Music  33:12

And let your heart unfold.