They showed me I was more than a mum | Sophie Cliff

Sophie Cliff  00:00

And now, 10 years on, I feel very passionately that experiencing joy is how we honor the people that we've lost, and it's how we show up and love them. It's like you, you don't get to have this, so I'm going to like really make the most of it for you.

Holly Newson  00:20

Hey, I'm Holly, and I am so glad you're here. This is Kind, a show about the times people received an act of kindness and how that changed things. In this episode, you'll hear the many wonderful ways that you can support someone through life's big moments. By the way, you've come a really long way. Right, let me introduce you to someone. You're about to hear from Sophie Cliff, a positive psychology coach who helps women find and create joy in their lives. She's also a best-selling author of two books, Choose Joy and The Hustle Cure. Sophie, welcome to Kind.

Sophie Cliff  00:55

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to chat.

Holly Newson  00:59

I'm so excited, and the stories you've sent over are beautiful, but no spoilers. So, to kick off with, what do you think it means to be kind?

Sophie Cliff  01:07

I think to be kind is to be human and to accept that we are human. It's about that kindness to ourselves and accepting our human limitations, which I think in the modern age we sometimes forget, and we're always trying to push past our limits, and I think it's also a really human thing to be kind to other people and to be in community and to remember that we're not supposed to be on our own in these little silos. We're supposed to be in community in our villages and connected with other people. And I think it is just a really, really human thing to do to practice that kindness.

Holly Newson  01:41

Are there little kind things that make you feel more connected to community?

Sophie Cliff  01:47

Yes, I think talking just to like strangers. So yesterday I was in the park with my two little ones, and my daughter was picking some conkers. And this lady came up to us, and she said, "I've been picking conkers in this park since I was your age." And she said, "I'm going to visit my mum now, who's 100, and I'm going to take a conquer to her because she used to play them with me when I was little." And just striking up that like three minutes of conversation, I was like, "Oh, that has been my glimmer for the day." And I think we're also, you know, I'm guilty of it myself. I'm always on my phone. You've got your headphones on. You're rushing you on to the next thing. But there is something really lovely about remembering that you know the people that we live amongst, or the people that we bump into on the train or in a shop, they're all going through the motions the same as we are. And I think it makes us feel so much more connected and so less alone, which is the opposite to when we're on our phones and we're on social media, and we can feel very isolated sometimes.

Holly Newson  02:43

Yeah, it disrupts your day, but in like a really good way. I think there is sometimes a headspace of this is what I'm doing in my day. These are the things I need to get done. This is where I'm going, and actually something kind of good sidelining all of those must-dos or should-dos or whatever.

Sophie Cliff  03:01

It disrupts some of the autopilot as well, and like brings you back to that present moment to to have that connection. And I think you know, even just chatting to the post person when they come to drop something off, or asking the barista like how their day is. Those little moments, I think, they just signal to our nervous system that we're safe and like we're we're around good people,

Holly Newson  03:21

Yeah. It's actually one of the reasons that I like animals. So talking to the post person, my cat always runs out into the corridor of our flats and flops for a belly rub. So you then, unless the post person really doesn't want to talk to you, that's something to strike up a conversation.

Sophie Cliff  03:37

Yeah, I love that. You sound like you have a much more sociable cat than mine. Mine runs in the opposite direction. If she hears the door get opened,

Holly Newson  03:44

Sometimes that would be quite useful. She's a bit kind of a leap before you look kind of a gal.

Sophie Cliff  03:52

I love it. I love that energy.

Holly Newson  03:54

So each time a guest comes on the show, I ask him to have a think of three times people have done something kind for them.

Sophie Cliff  04:01

Yeah.

Holly Newson  04:01

So, for your first one, will you start by telling me about your book club and the people in it?

Sophie Cliff  04:07

Yes. So, my book club is me and three pals. It's nothing formal. It was set up by the lady who took the photos at my wedding, and she's now a really good friend. But at the time, I knew her because she had been our our wedding photographer and she's based near where I live and she said I I really want to get something together you know with people that I've got things in common with and we get together and talk about some books would you like to come along and there was someone else who I vaguely knew at the time and someone who I'd never met before and we just started meeting and the first book we read was Cersei I always remember it because I remember being in a hotel room down here in London and finishing it and feeling so gripped, and it was a book that I would never have read otherwise. And we've been doing this now for gosh, that would have been 2018, the first like time we got together. So like nearly eight years, and we meet every month to every six weeks, and have done throughout. You know, during the pandemic, we did it on. Instead, and then we sort of like met in each other's gardens, very you know separate, following all of the rules. And we've gone through so many like life transitions together, the four of us. So, babies starting jobs, starting businesses, you know, navigating all sorts, buying houses, all sorts of different changes, and we've kind of like had this steady, consistent meeting, and it's a really lovely thing because they're not friends who are connected to any of other parts of my life. You know, it's not like uni friends who all know each other, or friends from home who've then met my family, or it's just this sort of like little group, and we just meet together to chat with each other and to talk about books, and it's been such like a wonderful, joyful thing. And I just love it every every month when I see the date in the diary come around. I'm like, yes, it's my time with the girls. And we do always like we're pretty good at actually finishing the book. But of course, now like we're eight years in, we talk about everything else under the sun as well.

Holly Newson  05:59

This sounds like well, ironically, the sort of book I would read. This is like a gorgeous, cozy book where each each chapter is just like the recounting of the next book club. And so, when this kind thing happened, tell me what was going on in your life.

Sophie Cliff  06:18

Yeah, so I had just given birth to my first baby, so it would have been sort of March or April time in 2023. I was about four or five weeks postpartum with my little girl, and of course it had been the most amazing time. But it had also been completely overwhelming, and this strange things happens, or my experience of it is that when you have a baby, you're kind of like sucked into the vortex where the only thing that matters is the baby, and it was something I'd been very conscious of before giving birth because lots of people had told me like this is this is what will happen, like it'll become your whole life, it'll become your whole identity, and it's something I really wrangled with because I feel like I had a really strong sense of identity before, and I always knew that I wanted to have children, and I felt very lucky to be pregnant and to be expecting a baby. But I also was like, "But what about me?" You know, I've built my own business, and I've written books, and I've got all of these friends, and I've got this sense of identity that felt very strong. And I was a bit worried, I suppose, that I would lose myself in this this sort of transition, and of course I did. Like that's naturally what happens because biologically we are wired to just meet the every need of the the tiny baby. And I had quite a difficult birth, and then the sort of recovery period from that. And we'd had so many people. We were so lucky. We had this amazing village that showed up in those sort of like you know immediate weeks after giving birth to my daughter, and they brought food and they sort of came to see us and they you know fussed over the baby and brought gifts, but it was very much like about the baby, and it was like we're here to see the baby and we want to meet the baby and are you okay? But where's the baby? And like of course that was amazing because we just wanted to show her off. We felt so so proud, but what was so lovely about my book club is they showed up for me, and they just showed up to to come and see me and to be there for me. And because I think perhaps because they're less connected to those other areas of my life, it just felt like a little moment of of being me.

Holly Newson  08:19

Yeah. So what did so what did that look like? They were like, Sophie, we're bringing book club to you.

Sophie Cliff  08:24

Yes. Yes. So I definitely didn't feel up to like at that stage getting out and about with the baby or without the baby. So they were like, Look, this is the date we had penciled in for book club. We'll bring it to you. You don't have to worry about anything. Like it doesn't matter what you look like, what the house looks like. And there was this real acknowledgement of that, which felt like a gift in an in and of itself. That there was no pressure to sort of perform, and they turned up and they did have a little cuddle and a little fuss with the baby. But then we handed him over to my husband, and my friend Amy made the like most gorgeous pasta and meatballs, and she brought a bottle of wine, and the others had brought like dessert and snacks, and we just sat around my kitchen table, and they were like, "How are you feeling? What's going on with you? How's this experience been for you? And then what else is going on?" And they caught me up on you know the outside world, and of course I hadn't read the book because I'd been sort of like grappling. But they told me what had been going on in their lives. They asked about like has anything you know been going on with work? What other things have you got coming up? And it just felt like like I was really taken care of, and it was so beautiful because all of my other friends were you know amazing and they showed up, but they were in similar walks of life. So a couple of my friends were pregnant at the time. They wanted to ask all the like gory questions about the birth, and a few of my friends already had little ones, and they were passing on advice, and that was all so valuable. But what the book club did was they just made me feel like me and made me feel seen, and that really continued, you know, throughout that whole postpartum year. And again, similarly, I had my second baby last year, and it has been a little lifeline for me again in the. In those weeks where I wasn't working and I was very much like, you know, completely immersed in mum mode, going out and sneaking out for two hours or three hours or whatever I could manage around like the baby's feeding schedule or whatever, and just being me and talking about books, something that I love so much, and asking my friends about their work or their lives, or you know, we talk about politics, we talk about podcasts, we talk about all sorts. in In those couple of hours, it just felt like it. It was something that made me feel really steady in amidst all of the change. And I've spoken about it a few times with other friends who are sort of entering that chapter as well. Is to like find your. Not everyone can be that for you, but find your people who can remind you who you were before all of this, and sort of hold the space for you to still be that person throughout the change.

Holly Newson  10:50

Yeah. And what did it mean to you that someone was asking about all aspects of you?

Sophie Cliff  10:56

It made me feel like a full and complete human, and I think, you know, I don't think anyone is trying to be reductive in those early days. But you know, the midwives come and they're like, "How's baby? How's baby?" And then they might ask like, "How's mum?" for like the last two seconds. And you know, you go to the GP for a six-week checkup, and they're like, "How's baby? Let's weigh baby." How's baby feeding? And then they're like, "And are you okay? All right, off you go." And even you know, you go to baby classes, and they will say to you, "Are you x's mum?" You know, they will ask, they will name you by the name of your child rather than, "Who are you and how are you?" And it's totally understandable. Like even myself, that's the the mode that I was in. I was like, "I am her mum, and I am here to sort of take care of her." But it was so nice to just have someone be like, "Don't forget, you're also all of these other things, and you know you care about all of these other things." And it was a really lovely excuse to keep reading and to keep like listening to interesting things because I knew that they would like want to chat about it next time we were together, and it just gave me a real, like, sense of continuity. I think in amidst lots of other change, and it felt really kind that they had seen me and like really honored me as a whole person. And I think within that group, there's one other, one other parent, and my other two friends are child free by choice, and that just I think felt like it made it gave the right balance to sort of be like I can show up just as who I am. I'm not trying to compete, or I'm not trying to say like, okay, well this is the milestones, and this is where we are, and this is which can sometimes happen with you know the mum friends that you make. Everyone is sort of trying to check that their baby is rumbling along at the right pace, and and my friend Amy, who's the the other parent in the group, her son is quite a bit older. My other two friends were like, "Baby's cute," but we're like, "We're not that interested in like whether she can smile yet or not." You know, they were much more interested in like, "Oh, have you read this thing?" or "What do you think about this thing?" or "What are your opinions on this?" And it just felt so nice to be reminded that, "Oh, yeah, I do have other opinions and I have got more going on up in my brain than like how many times did I get up to feed last night or how many times has the nappy been changed today or should she be rolling over yet it just felt so nice to connect to that other part of me

Holly Newson  13:16

yeah and that's so interesting as well because I'm someone who is child free by choice and I sometimes feel like I I almost like I really want to engage in the baby stuff because I don't want anyone to think that they can't come to me with that stuff because I I am interested and I care about all parts of them, but it's so interesting to hear actually that paying attention to the other stuff can be just as valuable. Actually, for me, that's a really big lesson.

Sophie Cliff  13:44

Honestly, it has been such. My child-free friends have been a real like stable base for me. I think throughout lots of change because, like I say, they are interested in my children and they love them and they you know they they care for them, but they are they're they're more interested in me as a person, and like they were my like one of my other friends always says to me like you're my friend like these kids are cute but you're my friend like I'm here for you and that that like total person that that you are and it it has just felt like such a gift to have that reminder because so much else does change you know your relationship changes, your home changes, your routines change. My relationship with work had to change. So much else was in flux. It was so nice to just have that reminder that this bit is still the same.

Holly Newson  14:31

Yeah! Wow! Thank you for sharing that. I feel like that's like my mind is like whoa. That's like such a beautiful story of kindness, and I'm I genuinely either a book or a TV show, a little drama about based on this book club. If someone could make that, that'd be great.

Sophie Cliff  14:51

I would love that. I'd love that.

Chloe  14:58

Hi, Holly. I'd love to share a story about something you in fact did for me earlier this year. So, as you know, we've always looked after each other's cats. I would look after Luna, and you would look after Skye when we were away. So, earlier this year, I went to California for a road trip, and I think it was about two days in I received that message that no pet owner wants to receive, and sadly, Skye had passed away overnight. She'd been poorly, and and the way you guys handled it was just amazing. So you you on a on a Sunday morning you took her to the animal hospital. After that, as I said, sort of being halfway across the world, feeling like I can't do anything. You, Richard, and our other neighbour Beth, all mucked in together. You cleaned my flat, which I did not expect in the slightest. You cleaned up after Skye, and you just you just rallied together, and it was just something that I have never forgotten. And it was a particularly difficult time in my life as well. You know, going through a divorce, navigating a new relationship, just trying to figure stuff out as well, and then losing my one companion that I had. So, so yeah, so it was just one of those things where it just really stayed with me. You bought me a lavender plant, you bought me a gift, and a really thoughtful card as well. And I think it's just those acts of kindness that just makes you realize how one how lucky we are to have our neighbours and to have a community. And I think also just to know that when life does get a bit rubbish, there are people around you to look after you and to just make sure you're okay and check in on one another. And I am eternally grateful for that.

Holly Newson  16:54

So moving on to your second story of kindness. Yes. With this one, will you start by telling me about 2016?

Sophie Cliff  17:00

Yes. So 2016 was like without a doubt the most difficult year of my life. I entered that year newly engaged. We just bought a house. I was doing well in my career. I was still in my old previous corporate career at this point. And in August 2016, we went on holiday to celebrate my uncle's 60th birthday, and a tragic accident happened, which meant that we came home without my cousin's little girl, and she passed away while we were on holiday. Which was so incredibly difficult in you know ways that I'm sure anyone listening can imagine. There was the grief, there was like huge trauma, there was just the shock of it all. There was so much to wrangle with, and it really was like, you know, I think I've spoken to lots of people since this event who've had similar sort of bereavements, or you know, any sort of bereavement perhaps in their life, or similar sort of a shock diagnosis or something unexpected that has happened, and it kind of cleaves your life into a before moment and an after moment, and you kind of remember who you were before, and you remember who you were afterwards. And you know, we're 10 years on from that moment now, and I feel like I'm actually only just in the last couple of years really starting to have like knitted it all together in my brain and made not made sense of it because it's a really sensical thing, but started to feel, you know, like I can carry it a little bit more lightly, and sort of from that August moment onwards, it just really felt like, like I say, I was in this after moment, and it was so confusing because I'd lost like an elderly grandparent before. That was the most traumatic thing that had ever happened to me at that point. Which I am so so blessed to be able to say I'd had a very charmed life up until that point, but losing Blossom just sort of like sent us into this tailspin. And it was not just that I was dealing with these things, but my entire family. You know, we'd been on a holiday together, so like my parents, my sister, my husband, like all of my cousins and aunties, we were all in this moment together, and it met. It made it quite difficult in a way. It was great in some ways in that we were all going through it together, and we were a very close family. We became even closer. We weren't having to hide certain feelings from each other or anything like that. But it also meant it was quite difficult because I'm quite a people pleaser, and I'm a sort of how you know an empath and worrying about how everyone else is feeling, and it meant that you know at times I didn't want to share things because I didn't want to upset anyone else if they were having a hard day, or I didn't want to bring things to to their table. And so it felt like quite a an isolating time in that you know I was 26. None of my friends had ever been through anything remotely like this. Like I say, I hadn't before, and I just felt a little bit well, all at sea of like, what do I do with this? How do I get my life back to some semblance of of what it used to look like?

Holly Newson  19:51

Yeah, it's so hard because you're the the support system that you'd usually turn to. You're busy thinking, okay, but like they also need support. Like, where do I fit into this? Yeah. And whilst trying to process, like you say, both grief and shock. Yeah. Which

Sophie Cliff  20:09

and everyone deals with those two things very, very differently. Even within, you know, like our immediate family, everyone. You know, even between just me and my husband, we had very different ways of dealing with both the shock and with the the grief, and so it was this real swirl of like, yeah, it's the the hardest thing I've ever been through, and also I didn't quite know what to do with that feeling because, like you say, I would normally go to my mom or go to my sister, but they were also in the in the trenches of it too.

Holly Newson  20:37

Yeah, and so as that year progressed,

Sophie Cliff  20:41

yeah,

Holly Newson  20:42

and and I mean, I would, I think there's no timeline on any of this, but certainly that bit at the start is certainly like the world has turned upside down,

Sophie Cliff  20:52

yeah, and it was really difficult because Blossom's birthday was Christmas Eve, then we had Christmas, and Christmas is a big deal in my family, it's like something we all come together for. You know, there are lots of other little ones in our family, and so I'd really been anticipating that end of the year. Like, wow, we've got this double whammy of the first birthday without her, the first Christmas without her, and then we're going to go into this new year without her. And I was unprepared for the the changing of the year one, and actually, when I've talked to other people in the grief club since, it's something that I think a lot of people resonate with. Is that you're going into a new year where you think, "Wow, they're never going to see that year," and that is really, like I say, something I'd never even contemplated before. But once you're in it, it's the only thing you can think about. And so, you know, not only was it like a difficult couple of months in terms of just getting our heads around things, we then also had these big milestones to to anticipate.

Holly Newson  21:48

Yeah, and so tell me about New Year's Eve.

Sophie Cliff  21:52

Yeah, so I was actually at my mum and dad's house. We'd gone home for sort of like the Christmas and New Year period, and there was a knock on the door, and all of my family sort of live in the same town still, so that isn't unusual. We were like, "Oh, it's someone just you know calling in for a cup of tea or something." But when I went to open the door, someone was stood there with a huge bouquet of flowers, and I was like, "Oh, mom, someone's you know sent you some flowers. How lovely! What's that for?" And when I opened the card, it was actually they were directed to me, and they were from one of my best friends from uni, Laura, and it was just completely out of the blue. She'd sent them the flowers to me and said, "I want you to have something beautiful as you head into the new year, and I want you to know, like, how you're feeling about this is is okay." And it was not something that I had felt like I'd communicated or said. You know, like everything felt difficult at that time, so it wasn't like I was saying I'm particularly feeling like I'm struggling with the new year. But she had just sort of anticipated that, like, gosh, the change of the new year was going to be difficult. And she also knew that that new year was an important one for us. It was the year we were getting married, and she knew that, like, you know, I think she wanted me to go into that new year with a sense of like optimism, not to sort of downplay what had happened, but to remember that the two things can can coexist. And it was just I just can remember so vividly sitting at like my mum and dad's dining room table and the flowers being there on the table, and it just feeling like like I was really seen and really like held in that moment, and not in a you know. She lives in a different part of the country. She was actually based down here in London at the time, and I'm up north, so it wasn't like she was physically there holding my hand. But that was how it felt to have someone recognize, and to have someone not sort of be like, "Okay, it's a new year now," you know, crack on, forget about that. It's time to. I think sometimes people do without necessarily meaning to. They might have some timelines in their head of like, oh, it's been quite a long time now, and you know, it's it's also difficult to to manage. And everyone has different experiences, but it just felt like a validation that like how you're feeling is okay, and there's someone like sitting with you as you you like navigate this.

Holly Newson  24:04

Yeah. Will you tell me a bit about Laura?

Sophie Cliff  24:06

Yeah. Oh, she is my like kindest person that I know. I've always said that she. I met her when I was at university. Um. We did. We both volunteered. We lived together in all sort of like three of our student houses, and we had rooms next door to each other all the way through, but we also she got me into volunteering with we called it the Rag Society. It was like Raise and Give, which is like the charity society. She's always done like so much like voluntary work, and she actually met her husband volunteering on a project. And she is just the most kind, like just fair person that I know, and I often feel like if I don't know where I stand on something, I'm like I trust I trust her like guide with like because she is such a compassionate person, and I think it's something that is just so like ingrained in her, and I feel yeah very lucky to have her as my friend.

Holly Newson  24:59

Yeah, and like. You said you were mid 20s at the time. Like,

Sophie Cliff  25:02

yeah,

Holly Newson  25:03

it's. I think as we get older, more of us have had experiences of grief and have at least a little bit more of a sense of how we might support someone else going through it. So, what did it mean also to have a friend who kind of, without you even saying had kind of got what you might need in that moment.

Sophie Cliff  25:25

Do you know it's it's interesting. We actually Laura and I had a conversation about this a couple of years ago because she was going through infertility and she said to me, "Oh, you know, you've really showed up for me, and you've really sort of like listened and and remembered all of these things." And I said, I've always remembered what you did for me, and she'd kind of forgotten the moment. Or she said to me, like, I didn't feel like I was able to be really there for you at that time. And I was able to tell her, like, just that one thing meant so much. And I think that's it, exactly. It, you know, all of my other friends were were incredible as well, but we were all very young, and that it was a very shocking and like difficult thing for other people to hear about. Or you know, none of us like to see our friends upset or in pain or going through a difficult experience. And so, I've got complete empathy for the fact that it must have been really hard for them as well. But it was just, it was, and it was a really great reminder that it doesn't always have to be the all singing, all dancing. Like you know, turn up, be there, put like you know, hold their hand, make their meals. Like that's amazing if you can do that. But sometimes, you know, physical location gets in the way, or like commitment, other commitments get in the way. And it, I've always just remembered it and held on to it because I'm like I can do that for other people even when I'm going through a busy time myself or there are other things that are on my plate like I can still make sure someone feels seen heard I can send a token I can send an acknowledgement that this will be a difficult moment and I want you to know I'm thinking of you

Holly Newson  26:58

yeah that you can show up in there's different ways to show up based on your capacity at the time, yeah, completely. And so, what did it mean for your New Year's having had those flowers arrive?

Sophie Cliff  27:10

I think it was just this. It was a reminder. I think that there can be like joy in, and that that joy can coexist with the trauma and the grief. And actually, you know, now talking about this 10 years on, that forms like such a basis of my work. That experience of losing Blossom was the catalyst for me to to change my career and to become interested in positive psychology. But I think it was like a planting of that seed of like, I think I had a bit of guilt going into the new year of like, oh, it's a you feel guilty crossing that threshold and then that other person can't, but also going into a new year where I was like, we're getting married and we've got all these exciting things and we're going to go on a honeymoon. And part of me was wrangling with like, am I allowed to enjoy some of this stuff when you know this this awful thing has happened? And it was just a reminder that like, particularly what she wrote about, like I wanted you to have something beautiful to like look at as we go into the new year, it was like a reminder to appreciate that beauty and celebrate. And now, you know, 10 years on, I feel very passionately that experiencing joy is how we honor the people that we've lost, and it's how we sort of like show up and love them. Is like you you don't get to have this, so I'm going to like really make the most of it for you, and you know, thinking about blossom is often the catalyst for like my wild ideas and big adventures. And it's like, okay, I'm going to channel a bit of hair into into some of this stuff. But I think at the time, I was really still grappling with what that could look like, and that that felt like a bit of a permission slip. Of it's okay to still feel excited, and it's okay to to look forwards, and you can do that while also holding on to to what has come before.

Swati  28:52

This story is from when I was in university doing a student exchange in Toronto, Canada. So a very very long time ago. So at the end of my fall term, I did a trip to Cuba, and the plan was that I would fly back from Cuba to Toronto, transit in the airport, and then fly back to Singapore, which was home at the time. So I spent a week in Cuba. Amazing weather, beautiful beaches, all around a fabulous holiday. But on the way out, when I tried to board my flight, I was told that since I didn't have a transit visa for Canada, and my student visa had me a single entry only, I was not allowed to board the flight. Now this is New Year's time. It was also a weekend coming up, so basically the banks were closed. The only card that I had was a Mastercard. Remember, I was a student at the time, so I didn't have too many cards. And I would come to discover that Mastercard was not widely accepted in Cuba at the time. And this was the end of my holiday. I had no plans to come back to Cuba, so I had finished off most of my cash. So now. I am making the rounds of the major hotels in Havana, asking who would accept Mastercard, in the hope that the bigger chains would. So I am at one of the hotels again, relating my sob story to the reception staff about how I was supposed to return to Singapore, but I am stranded. Can you please let me know if you will accept my Mastercard so I can stay here for a few nights while I work out what to do next. And there was this lady standing next to me, also waiting to talk to the hotel reception. And she turned to me and asked me, "Are you from Singapore?" And I was like, "Yep, I'm a uni student. I seem to be stranded here right now, just trying to figure out what my next steps are." And this lady just opened her wallet and passed me 100 US dollars. No questions asked. No mention of this is how you get the money back to me. She just gave it to me. I was so blown away by this very selfless kindness from her that she didn't even seem to have to think too long about. And with this money, then I was able to buy phone cards. Remember, this is pre-smartphone times to ensure I could contact my sister, who could then arrange my flights back a few days later with a much longer journey, not a direct flight. I had taken the lady's details, including her bank accounts. I did transfer the money back to her once I got back to Singapore, but almost two decades later, this incident still sticks out in my memory as this amazing act of kindness from a stranger, whose only connection to me was that she was also from Singapore.

Holly Newson  31:33

Moving on to your third story of kindness.

Sophie Cliff  31:38

Yes.

Holly Newson  31:39

Tell me what you love about gardening?

Sophie Cliff  31:42

Oh my gosh, I am feeling increasingly middle-aged, right? And it's probably because I am reaching middle age. But this year, like like a lot of other women my age, I've got into gardening. It's not something I've ever been into before. My dad has been trying to sell me on gardening for like my whole life, basically. Even when I was a kid, he was like trying to get me to plant seeds with him or take care of things, and I was like, "No, boring, whatever." Like, I've always been, you know, known as like I can kill any house plant. I can care really well for humans, but anything sort of, you know, like green, it was just not my bag. And last year, we moved to a new house, and it had in the garden this big, beautiful raised bed. We've got sort of like a terraced garden, but a big, beautiful raised bed. And at the time we moved in, I was 36 weeks pregnant with my son. So of course, I did nothing with that raised bed last summer. I was just like totally, you know, engrossed in navigating that change from one child to two. But this year, I thought I'm going to try. I'm going to try, and I planted some bulbs sort of last autumn that came up in the spring, and then I was like, I'm going to I'm going to see what I can do with it throughout the summer. And I did a lot of research. I knew that I wanted to be able to cut some flowers from the garden, and that was my kind of like my joyful goal for the year. I was like, if I can cut some flowers from the garden every week through the summer, I love having flowers on my dining table. I was like, that would feel just so joyful that every Friday afternoon I could go out and pick some that for the weekend we've got these fresh flowers. So I did my research, I read a book, I was like, I'm going to plant dahlias, I'm going to plant cosmos, all these things that I could cut, and they call it like cut and come again. They will keep flowering, and I thought amazing. So my daughter and I got hair into it. We spent so much time in February, March, and hitcher in like our tubers or our seeds and getting everything to the right place. Yeah, and we put everything into the garden, and it was amazing watching like the things come to life. And I'm completely sold on gardening now because to me it feels like the closest thing that we have to magic. That you can put a seed in the gut in like the soil, and a few months later you either have like these beautiful flowers or we've also grown tomatoes, and it's just been like I say a reminder that there is like magic and this cyclical nature to the world, and I think it's also really given me some of that like mindfulness, which again I know is so cliche, but I often, as as I get older, I'm finding that like cliche is a cliche for a reason. But it it gives me that reminder that like something changes every day, and you go out, and I'll like stand with my cup of tea in the morning. I'll be like, oh, that one's flowered, or there's a new bud on something there, or that thing's changed, or that looks like it needs a bit more attention, and it's just the most grounding way to start the day. And I often say that like joy happens in the present moment. And as we were talking about at the start of this conversation, we're often on autopilot, and we're not in the present moment. We're worrying about the past. We're worrying about the future. We're jumping between the two, and anything I think that brings us back to that, like what is happening right here, right now, creates a real opportunity for joy. And gardening has absolutely done that for me this year.

Holly Newson  34:49

Yeah, I mean, I for the first year have been growing herbs on my balcony, and yeah, cutting like being like, oh, I've got my tomatoes, which unfortunately I can't make. On the balcony, but like I've got some tomatoes, and I can go out and I can pick the fresh basil, and like I can have that with the tomatoes. It's just

Sophie Cliff  35:08

it like completely elevates the experience of eating the tomatoes.

Holly Newson  35:11

It really does. It's next level, and also there's like like you say, there's like a there's a slowness to it, but then also when it when it is full summer and stuff is popping up all over the place. One day you can be like, "Oh, there's probably not enough to harvest there," and then the next day you're like, "Whoa, yeah, that happened in like honestly 24 hours."

Sophie Cliff  35:31

I was like, "June is my favorite month ever because like the the pictures from like the start of June to the end was just like, wow, everything had changed so much, and you're nurturing it for so long, and then to like see it all kick in at once is just like such a satisfying thing.

Holly Newson  35:47

Yeah. So then tell me what happened when you went on holiday.

Sophie Cliff  35:51

Yes. So we had a lovely holiday to Italy booked at the start of the summer, which we'd been, you know, very excitedly anticipating it was going to be our first holiday as a family of four, and all I could think about was what was going to happen to my plants because that you know, as we're recording this, we've had I've lost track of how many heatwaves. Still feels unseasonably warm. So you know, one of the big heatwaves was forecast, and I knew that like we weren't going to be able to to water the garden or do anything. We don't have family that live nearby. We had someone coming to check on our little kitty, but she couldn't like stay and like you know help out with the garden as well. And I just kept saying to my husband like we've spent months and months, and it's finally just getting to the point where it's all coming into bloom, and you know it'll probably all be dead when we come home. And I kind of accepted that, made my peace with that, and we were out in the garden the night before we were going away, and our neighbour popped his head over and he's like, "Ah, you all all all right?" And I said, "I'll just let you know, like we're heading off on holiday. The cat sitter will be coming and going. So if you see someone you know unfamiliar, we're not being burgled. You know she's here for a reason." And he said, "Who's looking after your garden? And I said, "Oh, we haven't got anyone. Like, you know, it'll be all right. Hopefully, there'll be a bit of rain while we're gone." He said, "No, leave me the back gate key. I'll come in and I'll take care of it." And he really did. And he sent us pictures while we were away, like WhatsApping them to my husband, saying, "Like, oh, the dailies are looking really good today. Oh, the rose bushes started to flower," and it was just so joyful. And I think going back to that, what we spoke about at the start of the the conversation, that we talk, we think about kindness, and those other kindnesses that I've shared are like big things that have had this like real long lasting impact. But I think the real magic of kindness is reminding us that the world is mostly good, and it's really like hard to remember that sometimes. You know, you click on any news page, and you would be forgiven for thinking that the world was awful and everyone was terrible, and you can trust nobody. And I think those little acts of kindness, like he did not have to say that. He's also got a small baby. He's a teacher. He's got a little boy. They've got a lot going on. It was, you know, well within his like, you know, well within reason that he did not have to volunteer to do that, but he did, and it really meant so much. And it meant that when we got home, like the tomatoes were almost coming into, you know, into their ripeness, and there were the first few flowers that I could cut, and that was a joy in and of itself. Was that like my garden was still alive? But it was almost again this sense of like safety that comes with remembering people are good and like that community exists and people aren't just doing something because it will help them get ahead or it will help them turn a profit or like. And I think we sometimes can you know it's easy to believe that to think that that's how most people are motivated, and I think the more we can collect stories, and it's why I love this podcast. Like why the more we can collect stories and remember that actually most people have got that goodness and that kindness in them, the safer and the more connected we all feel.

Holly Newson  38:55

Yeah, and that is like you say, kind of the epitome of why I wanted to make this to remind people that like the kindness is so prevalent, it really is so prevalent.

Sophie Cliff  39:06

Yeah,

Holly Newson  39:06

and I just love that he took photos and sent them to you. Like obviously, like I can imagine that with a with a cat sitter, you know, like the cats get the cats playing over here, or like you know, cats looking really cute, whatever. But to send you photos of the flowers, it's just like I know that this is something you've clearly poured yourself into.

Sophie Cliff  39:23

Yeah, like he's watched as that like garden has started to come to life and understood that it was important, and has seen me out there with my my little girl. And we actually, I think, got more photos of the flowers than we did the cat because my cat is very shy. Like the cat said to us, like, I know there's proof of life, but I haven't actually located where in the house she is.

Holly Newson  39:45

That's so wonderful. And so, did you then have cut like be able to cut flowers for the rest of the summer?

Sophie Cliff  39:51

Yeah, and still going now. Like we're recording at the end of September, and it's still going. It's been gorgeous, and it's been such a joy. I think. Again, that like slowing down and that just remembering like that that you can like make things like that happen. I think it's been it's been really funny for me. It's like been a confidence builder that I wouldn't expect because it's not anything to do with my work. But it was just one of those things that I'd always sort of said like I can't do that. I can't do that. And it's been a bit of a challenge of like okay, well I have done that. So, what else could I do, and how could I apply this? But I think you know, I read so much in my line of work around what brings us joy and what impacts us and what helps us to, you know, have like better well-being or live more joyful lives. Yeah, and I read so much about nature and how it's important, but I've really felt it this year, and it's just been that sense of like coming down every morning and seeing something on the dining table when I'm making my cup of tea. Is like, ah, I did that, and like it's like a gorgeous color, and it's just a little bit of joy to start the day with. And you know, that's without all of the other benefits of like the presence and the mindfulness and the patience, and you know, and also that connection with our neighbour, which connection is is the biggest predictor of joy.

Holly Newson  41:07

Yeah, oh, it's so wonderful. So my sister is a gardener, and that's her job.

Sophie Cliff  41:12

Oh, amazing!

Holly Newson  41:12

And I sometimes think that, like, I'm sometimes like, I wonder if she knows that, like, she's kind of hacked life.

Sophie Cliff  41:18

Yeah, she's gonna live forever.

Holly Newson  41:20

Yeah, she's literally gonna live forever.

Sophie Cliff  41:23

It's so true. We we live directly opposite the park, and the gardener for the park he like should have retired like 1520 years ago, and he's still going because he's like I just love it so much. It's you know it just brings such solace, and I think it's that connection with the seasons changing as well. You know we're still cutting the flowers at the moment, but there's also that anticipation of like, okay, we'll have to dig all this stuff up, and then we'll put some spring bulbs in. And it's like, I think there's something really powerful about that reminder that we're not supposed to be always on, and we're not supposed to be productive 24/7. Like the garden has its its peaks and its pits, and that's normal, and that's something that we should have as humans as well.

Holly Newson  42:03

Yeah, definitely. And so, my final question to you: What is the kindest thing you have ever done for yourself?

Sophie Cliff  42:10

I love this question, and I think for me, it's given myself permission to change with like the seasons of life. I've had a big career change. I've changed since becoming a mum, I've changed my opinions on things. I've changed my mind on things, and I think that is a kind thing to do for ourselves. I think I see a lot of people in my coaching practice who are being unkind because they're trying to hold themselves to things that they decided 10 years ago or 15 years ago. You know, beliefs about themselves or paths that they set themselves on, and I think for me, I know I'm being kind when I give myself the grace to be like, it's okay to change your mind on this, or it's okay to do this differently, and you don't have to prove yourself to anyone. You know, it's it's that connection with ourselves, and I've definitely wasted a lot of time in my life trying to prove and trying to hold on to things for, you know, to to show that I can do things. But yeah, I think that kindness and that permission to just say it's okay, we can do something different now, is is the thing I come back to.

Holly Newson  43:12

What thing that you've changed your mind on, or something that you've let go of, has had the biggest effect on you do you think?

Sophie Cliff  43:19

I think the biggest, or the one that feels most prevalent to me at the moment, is changing my relationship with work since having my children. And I wrote about this in my second book. I very much thought that it was like my job as a feminist to still be as ambitious about my career post having children. And it was something that I was like, I really passionate about. I was like, I will still really deeply care about my work, and I will still want to work as many hours. And I do still really deeply care about my work, if if not more so, because I want my kids to grow up in a joyful world. But I also have that compassion for myself that, like, it's incredibly rare that I get to sleep more than like six or seven hours. And in this season of life, I have two small kids, and I want to spend time with them, and I want to soak that up. And that sometimes means saying no to things or saying that's going to take like six months, whereas before I might have turned it around in two months, or you know, just being a little bit more discerning with with what I do or don't say yes to. And I think there has been in that a lot of letting go of things that I was doing, like I was just saying, to prove or to show that I was capable, and yeah, just sort of acknowledging, like I don't have to to prove myself to anyone. I can like what I can know what is most important to me in this season, which is to do great work, but also to be really present with my family, and it doesn't have to be an either or. I can choose both, but it is. It was something I wrangled with, particularly after having my daughter, because it felt so. I think we're this generation of women that were told like you can do and have it all, and like to be a good woman is to do and have it all, and to make it all look, you know, easeful and you know completely painful. And actually, being able to dial some things down felt like a big shift for me. But it has been definitely an act of kindness. It has given me more peace and more sanity and more time to like actually, you know, have a bit of balance in my life.

Holly Newson  45:16

Yeah, I think ambition is really interesting because the idea that we're allowed to be different levels of ambitious at different times, particularly when sometimes that might be tied to your identity, like you've climbed a ladder or you've done well in a career, and and people see you, oh yeah, you're really ambitious, and if you've actually been praised for that as a woman, that's like, oh wow, as

Sophie Cliff  45:37

a people pleaser, who collects praise.

Holly Newson  45:40

Yeah, yeah. It's not like someone went, "Oh, you're a bit too ambitious." If they're like, "Oh, you're ambitious," then you're like, "Oh my god, and I'm being praised for it." And you know that's what I fought for. So yeah, to let yourself choose, choose when those things serve you and when they don't. I think is is massive.

Sophie Cliff  45:57

Yeah, and that's actually been like a little catchphrase that I find myself coming back to a lot, which is you can be ambitious about more than just your work, and it's something I talk about a lot with coaching clients as well. It's like I'm really ambitious about how much time can I spend with my kids before they start school, and like everything changes. And I'm really ambitious about like how many dahlias I can grow in my garden, and I'm really ambitious about like how many adventures we can go on, and remembering that like that does feel like a very natural part of me to be ambitious, and like you say, it's like something that has been celebrated and rewarded, and a key part of my identity. And I am still incredibly ambitious about my work, but that ambition doesn't always manifest as quickly as it did, you know? Before I had my kids, where I'd be like, "Okay, I've signed a book deal. We're going to write the book in three months," and like that was a possibility. And that just doesn't feel as possible these days. But that ambition can still be poured into other parts of life, and I think that's something we're never really taught. We're taught that ambition is for work, and actually, you can apply it to any goals. Like ambition is just about going after and achieving what you've set out to to achieve. And actually, you can apply that, like I say, to your garden or to your holidays or to like how many great recipes you know how to cook. Whatever it is that brings you the joy.

Holly Newson  47:18

Yeah. Well, Sophie, this has been just amazing. Like I feel like I'm gonna when I listen back to this, I'm gonna be like, oh my god, so much goodness. Thank you so much.

Sophie Cliff  47:29

Thank you so much for having me and for being such a a gracious host.

Music  47:34

Hey, hold on, I'll stay here till it goes.

Holly Newson  47:42

Thank you so much for listening. You being here and your support means a lot to me. I know Sophie is known as the joyful coach, but that could not be more accurate. I came out of that conversation with such a spring in my step, ready to connect with those around me, and not to mention a new perspective on how I can support my friends with kids. This episode is dedicated to anyone who's helped you keep your plants alive. Maybe share the episode with one of those people in your life or someone else who might enjoy it. I would also love to hear from you about a time someone was kind to you. So send that in at kindpodcast.com, or you can email me holly@kindpodcast.com, and I will feature some of the stories in the show. If you like the show, hit subscribe, comment, give it a rating, a review. All of that stuff helps me a lot. It was great to spend time with you. Speak soon.

Music  48:40

dream on, and let your heart unfold.