A Tibetan lama swapped books with me | Eva Oh

Holly Newson  00:01

Wow.

Eva Oh  00:02

And I'm like, what? Lama, what?

Holly Newson  00:07

Oh hey, welcome to kind I'm so glad you're here. I'm Holly, and I'll be chatting to guests about the times people were kind to them and how that changed things. In this episode, you'll hear how the people closest to you and people you've never met before can surprise you in the very best of ways. By the way, I'm proud of you, right? Let's drop you straight in. You're about to hear from Eva. Oh, an internationally renowned dominatrix and podcast host, Eva, welcome to the show.

Eva Oh

Thank you!

Holly Newson

I'm so excited to have you here.

Eva Oh

Thank you for having me.

Holly Newson

So first question, what does it mean to be kind? What does that mean to you?

Eva Oh  00:59

I think that it's probably a core value that helps life to feel its best.

Holly Newson  01:08

Yeah, would you say it's one of your core values?

Eva Oh  01:10

I think so. Yeah. I think it's quite central kindness in how I move through the world and how I am to myself,

Holly Newson  01:20

And what's an everyday act of kindness that means a lot to you, like someone checking in or making you a meal.

Eva Oh  01:26

Mostly think about myself like, what am I doing for me? But you're thinking in terms of other people doing?

Holly Newson  01:35

For this one, yeah,

Eva Oh  01:36

Giving me space.

Holly Newson  01:40

I love that.

Eva Oh  01:43

Yeah.

Holly Newson  01:44

Is that something that you value on a day to day basis, or are there particular times where you're just like,

Eva Oh  01:50

Oh, day to day, almost every moment! Spot the introvert!

Holly Newson  01:59

Yeah, so you're quite happy in your own company.

Eva Oh  02:00

Oh, I love it. Yeah. Love it so much. And I think, especially, I guess, in the business of interaction, I and also, because it's also the business of relationship, in a lot of ways, I really appreciate the slaves who are able to keep their distance, but appreciate the closeness when we do have it, yeah, there's a balance,

Holly Newson  02:24

yeah,

Eva Oh  02:25

yeah. They don't know it most of the time. I get it

Holly Newson  02:33

As part of that, are you, do you feel that you can tell you can tell these, oh, can you tell the slaves?

Eva Oh  02:41

Mmm, me personally? Yes. I can see how maybe at an earlier part of my career, when I was more financially hooked onto whether that income was coming in, then you feel a little bit more like you can or you need to blur your boundaries in order to make the bag. But now, because I have made enough to be more independent from them, it's a very quick No.

Holly Newson  03:11

So when a guest comes on the show, I ask them to think of three stories. Three times people have done something kind for them. So your first story, I wondered if you'd start by telling me where you were in your career at this stage.

Eva Oh  03:29

So the first story that I remember of an act of kindness was when I first started domination. So when I my first day that I worked in to walked into the dungeon, and I walked into the waiting room, which was really fluorescent and not vibey like the rest of the place. And there were three DOMs in there, and one of them was called damonia, and she offered to take me on a walk of the house.

Holly Newson  04:00

Okay,

Eva Oh  04:01

yeah,

Holly Newson  04:02

so you've walked into this fluorescent room, Demonia's there

Eva Oh  04:07

in motorcycle boots,

Holly Newson  04:08

nice.

Holly Newson  04:10

And how are you feeling in that moment?

Eva Oh  04:12

I've walked into a lot of first times, so I'm okay with just showing up and adapting. So I was just like, ready, I guess, yeah, it's like, quiet and watching and ready as I could be. But I think the way that I usually approach things is that I leave myself available to what the room kind of needs. So that's just the headspace that I was walking in the room wanted me to be the lowest common denominator, which is fine, which is what I did the entire time I was in that room for the year.

Holly Newson  04:50

So Mistress Demonia says, Go on, then I'll take you on on this tour.

Eva Oh  04:55

Yeah.

Holly Newson  04:56

And what was it about that, about her taking you on the tour, but even the offering, that stood out as particularly kind to you?

Eva Oh  05:05

Well, I don't think at that point I really realized when she said, I'll give you a tour and I'll show you how to clean because that's going to be the most important thing you're going to have to learn. I don't think at that point I really thought, Oh, that's a very kind thing to do. I kind of only upon reflection do I realize like, how generous she was being. Like, not only does she walk me through and tell me little stories of things, but she was just like, being so perceptive to who I was. And I think that was partially because she was getting a kick out of the new girl, like seeing things for the first time, but, you know, like at one point we're walking through the big dungeon, and she's telling me this cute story about this saddle that somebody had custom made for himself, and everybody rode him, and then he never came back. Very lovely, like, kind of set the scene for me. She was just, I guess, very generous and artistic about her induction of the new girl. And then she took me to the back room, which is like the brass, another medical room, and there was, like some sort of fluff on the side of a chair. And I went to and she was like, somebody didn't clean that. So I'm like, service mode, I'm trying to find something to clean it with, and I grab a tissue, and she's like, No, it leaves five verse. And so then she takes, like, a towel, and then I take a towel, and then we clean the thing. And so it's just, I guess, I just liked that. Yes, it was serving her curiosity, but it was also, like, very generous, and noticing my gaps and how to fill them, I just really appreciate, I guess, the perception, and she didn't even have to talk to me that day. You know, a lot of them avoided me the whole time that I was there. But I don't know why she did that, but I guess there was just something quite caring about her, even though the motorcycle boots and everything was very terrifying and she was also like, doctorate in, like, Medicine. I'm not going to go into exactly what, but I just like, terrifyingly intelligent, terrifying esthetic, terrifying way that she moved through the world. Yeah, yeah. And I also was invited into her session that day, and she, like, her eyes sort of lit up, and she said that this is actually a very good first session for you to witness, and it was electrics and mummification, which is not as common as maybe some things. And so I think that's what she meant, but that, I guess she brought me in, yeah, and that she kind of like told, told me to do things, without telling me to do things. She just gave me so much like on my first day. And I think that might just be her nature, but, um, but I got so much information just from those two hours with her, you know, that I still apply today, yeah, so I'm gonna be indebted to that moment forever.

Holly Newson  07:57

Yeah, that's such a huge impact that the very start still impacts today. So Demonia is in the boots. What else? What else is she wearing?

Eva Oh  08:08

I was really, really normal, like, maybe just like a T shirt and some sort of, like Jean situation, but then, but then during the session, like, I didn't see her change until I went through she had put on this, like, really long wig, and she had really cropped hair, and then also wearing, like a full, like lace, sort of cat suit, right? Yeah. And her voice had dropped, like many, many, like levels of loudness. It had become very, very soft, okay, still very strong, yeah, but, like, very soft. It was like a different space. And she was like whispering to the guys here, and I do all of these tricks now too, yeah. So it was like a learning day, but at the end of the day, I did end up doing my first session, even though I didn't plan on that, which was amazing. But I did a lot of things wrong. We all do, yeah, but we could have done with a little bit more training before flogging somebody, I think, but I had never seen a flogger before. That day was brand new to the whole thing,

Holly Newson  09:20

Really, not even something that you knew about?

Eva Oh  09:23

No, what's one thing actually that Demonia asked me, she kind of at the very beginning, before offering the tour or anything. She said, so have you been in sex work before? At that point, I had learned what sex work the term was. And I said, No, which I didn't know before. So naive. And then she asked, Oh, so, but you practice kink? And I was like, such a fucking weird thing to say. But like, I was like, I feel acquainted with the headspace, but I don't actually know the practicalities of it. I said something like that,

Holly Newson  09:57

A very eloquent thing to say!

Eva Oh  09:58

I know, but it, it's just like in an open room with people who don't know you, and most people are working class and like, it's just like the wrong sentence to say, like, making yourself stand out like a sore, bloody thumb. God help it. You read a lot when I was small. It just comes out.

Holly Newson  10:19

So what had brought you to that point?

Eva Oh  10:22

I needed the money. Okay, yeah, so I was in strategic consulting before, and I I had done a lot of freelance stuff that was really fun, but then I thought, okay, maybe I can make proper money out of this. And so I joined an agency, and I hated it. Within weeks, I understood already that I was way too idealistic for a job that was all about the dollar, but I needed to find work. So after my probation ended, I couldn't go through a whole other process with me, like six months, interviews, whatever, to get that job right. What am I going to do? I'm going to search this thing that somebody sort of suggested to me once upon a time because I was being assertive about something. I think that assertive women are seen as bossy, and then there's this like title put upon them that is, like made towards female domination, when actually it's just assertiveness. I think, yeah, yeah.

Holly Newson  11:20

So why do you think that the atmosphere from everyone else was like, not even going to talk to you?

Eva Oh  11:27

Patriarchy, because women are pit against each other as a symptom of it, as well as symptom of capitalism. I guess you're walking in as a freelancer and a group of freelancers, and I think you feel the pressure of that, yeah, so I never held it against them, but, um, but yeah, I get it, yeah.

Holly Newson  11:50

And is it something that you have passed on since?

Eva Oh  11:54

What the ass-holeness?

Holly Newson  11:57

No no! The idea that, you know, like you could take someone's hand and be like, generosity of spirit. This is, this is the lay of the land.

Eva Oh  12:07

Yeah, I, I believe that it serves all of us. There's a lot of people who don't like how much I give, and they want me to gate keep more. I think I try to gate keep the things that need to be, you know, like our security stuff and and some safety stuff. And I don't encourage people to do heavy practices and stuff like that unless they have proper training. But in general, I like to be available. And now I have, I mean, the podcast, the book, everything is kind of a symptom of me just wanting to give. And also, I have a Patreon that's, like, pretty cheap, like, compared to my usual rate of interaction. Yeah, that people can come and ask me whatever I do. Q and A's on there. So I've been in this for almost 15 years, and I think there becomes a point when, if you're not sharing, it's an insanely selfish act in a social world,

Holly Newson  13:05

yeah, if you weren't sharing, do you think it would feel lonely or anything like that?

Eva Oh  13:12

Probably, yeah, probably. And it just doesn't really align with how I I feel about camaraderie, I guess, yeah, yeah, I don't really see us as individual. I think I see us very tethered to each other, yeah, and I, I know the effects of that isolation. What do you mean? Well, it's already so isolating being a sex worker. I think that, you know, even if somebody is not a part of a big group of sex workers going to parties or whatever, if they just hear the podcast or they just see an Instagram post and they see something that's a little bit of who they are, they feel like they can have a little bit more space in the world, and maybe that will lead to something else. So I think it's like a duty, almost to be available as somebody who is from a very marginalized place, if I have the capacity to be obviously it's not safe in general or very unsafe for others, so just as long as I can, I guess,

Kay Harrison  14:29

Hi, Holly, it's Kay. I'm here with my act of kindness story. My story is about my cat, Lyra. Lyra wardrobe to give her a full title. I let my kids pick a name each, and that's what happens when you do these things. But we got her in lockdown, and she was the first pet for my kids. So you can imagine all the love for this cat. So so much love for Lyra wardrobe. So it was pretty awful when I got a call from the vets to say she'd. And run over. And I had to get there quick, because it wasn't looking good. Got there really fast, but it was too late for Lyra. Sadly, she was in a hell of a mess and had to be put down. So all very traumatic and horrible. Much missed that cat, but it transpired that, and this is where the kindness comes. She'd actually crawled into the garden of someone's house, a lovely lady called Olivia, who had a baby. So she put a message on Facebook, saying, Can somebody help? And someone did help, another stranger, a guy called Daniel, who came and scooped her up. And yeah, without them stepping up and coming to help a stranger's cat, I wouldn't have been able to get there in time to say goodbye and just give her a bit of comfort right at the end, because at the end, she even she knew I was there, she was purring. So she managed to do some final purrs. And that's kind of huge. So thank you to those amazing two strangers who were kind to me and her this mess of a cat. So, and also, thank you to Lyra wardrobe, because she did a final act of kindness for me crawling into Olivia's garden. Olivia is a beautician, and now we're friends, and Olivia does my eyebrows, so thank you, Lyra and wardrobe. Love the show.

Holly Newson  16:31

We're going to move on to your second act of kindness. So will you start by introducing me to your mum?

Eva Oh  16:48

Oh, my mom, what do you want to know?

Holly Newson  16:52

What's she like as a person? Like, what's her vibe when she comes into a room?

Eva Oh  16:56

Oh, I mean one, because everybody judges things on looks, she's incredibly beautiful, so that's probably what they would notice first. But then alongside that, she's quite quiet in a lot of ways, but not in a way where she's shy, yeah? And so I think it's just very peaceful sort of feeling, yeah. So I'm very lucky.

Holly Newson  17:25

And what's your relationship like with your mum?

Eva Oh  17:27

Oh, I always just thought that's what relationships were like. But now I realize that it's not the case. We're probably on the high end of close, okay, yeah, yeah. Like, I'll call her whenever I can, like, once a day, maybe texting all the time, asking for advice, even at 40 plus.

Holly Newson  17:51

Is she, is she good advice?

Eva Oh  17:53

Oh, she's great. Yeah, she's the best. Yeah, some of my exes, like, still ask whether they can ask her for advice. And I'm like, No, that was gone.

Holly Newson  18:04

Yeah, you don't get, you don't get

Eva Oh  18:07

that entitlement.

Holly Newson  18:12

Yeah, and has it always been like that, that relationship? Have you always been close?

Eva Oh  18:17

There was a moment there when she had to go away to work in Japan, when I felt quite hurt, yeah, but that was when I was much, much younger. But I think it all kind of got very much closer again when I when I started my meditation, actually, yeah, because then it gave me more space to, like, hear her a little bit more.

Holly Newson  18:38

When was that in your life?

Eva Oh  18:41

14 years ago now. Okay, yeah. And so maybe there was, unfortunately, like, a 10 year gap, but then it was also around, like, adult adolescence, which is difficult for everybody. Yeah, thank God that is in the past. Yeah, all the time. I'm always thinking like, wow, I'm glad I don't have to do any of that again. So much learning. Hang in there if you're younger than me.

Holly Newson  19:09

And so you said, when you said these over that, your mom is always kind Yeah, what was the specific kind thing that came to mind?

Eva Oh  19:18

So I didn't tell my mother about work for about seven years.

Holly Newson  19:27

Okay, even though you're talking all the time?

Eva Oh  19:29

yeah, we talk about other things, yeah. What do you How's work going? Because, like, I was kind of doing freelance stuff before, so I just said, you know, contracts are good. Contracts are good. She knew something was up, but she just like gave me the space. Because I guess she just knows me. She knows that I will say when I'm ready, and I feel like she knows most things before I even say so, for example, I haven't talked about the podcast with her because there's some pretty intimate things on there, but I. I'm sure she knows that the podcast is around. I'm sure she follows my instagram with her burner account or whatever. But the particular story that I'm thinking about is when I finally told her about work and I planned this big trip like we were all going to Singapore, because she loves Singapore, and I like treated the whole family to it, and I'm going to tell them, and if it goes wrong, it's okay, just going to go home to Holly and continue my life without my family, which, of course, is difficult, but it was just like I realized it had come to a point where I needed to be honest, otherwise it would stop my relationship, not only with them, but with my job and the world, you know, like they were the first point of being okay with how I was, and I needed to extend on that, and they were kind of the crux of it. And so I didn't tell them, It's terrifying, okay? And so they're at the airport. I've dropped them off. They're flying off, and I'm like, so I'm gonna keep going on Hong Kong and I'm going to go work, and they're like, Oh, what are you doing in Hong Kong? And I said in the WhatsApp family chat, like, professional domination. And then, like, pause, because I guess they don't know what it is. And then probably googling. And then private chat really, like, Yes, I am available for questions. And she said, no card questions. I'll let you know. And then we continue on like normal, whatever. Nobody really addresses it in the chat. And a month later, I see her in the south of Australia, so Western Australia, and I take her to like, wine country down there. And as soon as she and I are alone, she starts asking me questions. Like, so what does that sort of relationship look like with your clients? I guess she had done some Googling, yeah, and like, so what? What are the motivations for having that like? What is it like, also for you? So what is the touch point like when you're not together? Then there was, like, very, very thoughtful, like, I want to understand what is happening and why it's happening. And I think that was like, Oh, shit, I should have told her sooner. And then just like, half an hour after all of that sort of happens, we're driving out of the property and rented this, like, huge middle nowhere property, and I tell my partner at the time to open the gate, because I'm driving and and she's in the back seat, and she says, hey, you know some of us just like to be told, Don't we? What, you're making a joke? Already?

Eva Oh  22:42

Okay? Yeah. So I guess, like, it was a really good experience of the richness of her compassion, yeah, it's her humor, her curiosity, yeah, it's she just, and I guess that's why, like, kindness, care is such a big part of my life, because it's just how we are. Yeah, it's just how the family sort of is.

Holly Newson  23:07

Yeah, what did it mean to you that she'd led with curiosity and humor?

Eva Oh  23:15

I mean, it's her in a bloody nutshell all the time. She's like, laughing at me, but like, I feel like love in it, so I'm like, Okay, fine. Laugh at me. I was really proud of her, I guess, yeah,

Holly Newson  23:29

And did that then open up different conversations, when you're chatting to her every day? Were there different things that you felt if you wanted to, you know you could share, you could go there in a way that work before had been like, I want a contract. It's good.

Eva Oh  23:44

Actually, no, because that's not like the main focus of our interaction. There's a lot of other things to sort of think about and talk about, but, um, but I would throw in that I'm going for work or whatever, or I have a really big client, this is kind of what they're about, or something like this. But it's actually still just maybe 2% of what we're actually talking about. It's just easier, I guess, yeah, yeah.

Holly Newson  24:08

Did it change how you felt about what you were doing given that you'd you'd shared it?

Eva Oh  24:13

Yeah, I guess the backing of my family has always been a huge thing, and now I really feel it like entirely, and so I guess I just have even more balls now, like if it all goes wrong? Just go home to mom.

Holly Newson  24:31

It's kind of the ideal thing. Yeah, what had you feared the conversation might go like?

Eva Oh  24:38

That they would disown me, you know, yeah, because she's also quite religious, like, she's really into the Bible. She teaches the Bible to women. She works at like an Anglican, sort of like space. And so it's that was kind of like, maybe this won't go down very well, but it. It did. It worked out.

Holly Newson  25:01

Yeah, how do you think that she reconciles her beliefs with all the different sides of society and of you?

Eva Oh  25:10

Well, I guess also maybe, because I'm not really sure that could be an interesting question for for me to ask her, actually, but I have the sense that, because when she does all of the teaching, it's not just like what the Bible is saying. It's like, how are we interpreting it? What is the culture at the time? What is the context? How have things changed? So I think that it's not like her religion isn't basic, like maybe a lot of people's might be. I think her religion has inspired self investigation. This is what I've noticed in her and then I think an investigation in general, and ability to be there for people also, because she's like, leading groups of women, right? Yeah, so I think it kind of works out for me.

Holly Newson  26:01

Sounds like maybe it's towards more of a set of values than something really prescriptive,

Eva Oh  26:06

yeah, yeah. And I think also the fact that we come from such a varied background, also and moved a lot and my family like we're completely different colors a lot of the time. We all speak like different languages in different parts, and we speak English together. So I think the variety, also of perspective has probably helped. Also, yeah, always grateful. Could be really, could be really bad,

Holly Newson  26:35

yeah. I mean, it sounds like a wonderful family, yeah?

Eva Oh  26:39

No, I feel very lucky all the time.

Speaker 1  26:55

So my family came from Croatia with refugees, and there was a family that helped us stay with them, and I still remember that I was quite young, but it was, it was quite a horrible time, and they had no reason to do that, and a lot of people very hateful and not helpful. And I still, we're, we're still friends with them, and they're just the most amazing people. And that does kind of like a really big kind thing, obviously, but it's just taking in some family and, yeah, just change someone that someone's life.

Holly Newson  27:35

So we're gonna move on to story number three. So will you start by setting the scene of where you were when this took place?

Eva Oh  27:43

It was quite recent. I was taking a short flight. Always like being the last person on the plane, just like, don't want to have to keep sitting, you know, yeah. And so walk onto the plane, I guess the guy next to me thinks there's nobody there. Yahoo for him. He's got his shit all over my seat, and he's a bit older, so I'm not like, pissed. I'm just like, okay, probably needs some help. So I end up saying, like, getting to the seat and saying, Hey, I'm sitting here. Is that all right? Like not being confronting, just sort of like letting you know you're gonna have to get your life together. And he looked really sweet, actually, when he looked up and he's like, Yeah, of course, yeah. Like, a little bit, like, dumb also, you know, like, dumb to the fact that that could be sarcastic, which I'm grateful for. So I didn't want to be mean, but I know it can come across like that sometimes. And so I just ask him whether he wants help with his bag. And so I take the bag and I put it up, which I guess I'm realizing now is probably the trigger for him being curious about me, because I guess women don't normally offer to put a bag up for a dude. Yeah? Because I would just, I just want to sit, you know, yeah, and I am strong and I'm here. Let's just let him do this. It's gonna take you so long to get out of that seat anyway. So I did that, and I sit down, and he's asking, so why are you? Why are you going to where we're going? And I don't want to tell him that I'm going there for my friend's sex party, that she's become the creative director of, and I'm a dominatrix, and my like, sub flew me out and blah, blah, blah. I'm like, I'm just visiting passing through. Also, what do you normally do with your time? It's like, oh, these days I'm mostly looking after my family, which is not untrue, but I just didn't want to get into it, like, I'm in here for the next hour. I don't need to talk about this, right? And so he starts to offer things about himself. You know, he's on the way to talk about, like, Buddhism, because he's a scholar. He's like, he was like, working with the Dalai Lama and so on and so forth. And then we find out that he's like, a Buddhist teacher, actually, like a lama in the like, a certain tradition. And I'm like, Okay, we're like, maybe half an hour in now, you've told me some wonderful stories. I'll just bloody tell you. Oh, I'll just tell you, you seem really cool, actually. Yeah. I am on my way to a sex party, and my friend is becoming the creative director of an it, so I want to celebrate with her. And I am a dominatrix, so this is the norm for my life. Yeah. And he was like, ah, and then he starts talking about tantra a bit, like, really chill, like, sort of taking it on board. Know, some terminology. I'm like, You have lived he's, like, in his 70s at this point. Yeah. And we get on to, like, talking about what we were doing just in the few days around that flight. We're non stock talking non stop from, like, sitting down to getting off the plane, by the way, right? And he's talking about how he just submitted, like, a book to his he's written, like, a lot of books. And I was like, oh, so I have, I'm just on the last legs of my draft with my agent. And he's like, Oh, can I see and so we swap laptops. His is, like a touchscreen, so he completely messes up my manuscript. Thank God I have, like, I can go back anyway. And, like, so he's reading mine. I'm reading his. And, like, he this is incredible. I'm like, reading stuff about, like, the Dalai Lama and stuff and and he's reading and he's chuckling to himself. I gave him the chapter on penis envy because he had talked about, like, emasculation or something at one point in the conversation. And then when we're both sort of done, he says to me, like, can I give you a note? Is that okay? And I'm like, yeah, yeah. I'm like, totally fine. So different to when it first started anyway. And he said, so you know when you talk about he opens his hand and shows you His orgasm. I'm like, yeah. He's like, I feel like, just a little bit more description there would make it more visceral for the reader. I feel like the reader wants to see like what it looks like. Is there a sound?

Holly Newson  31:48

Wow.

Eva Oh  31:49

I'm like what? Lama, what?

Eva Oh  31:56

But I add, I added in what it looks like and the viscosity of it. And so we can thank, we can thank the Lama for that. But I just thought, like, I guess similarly to like, my mom, right? It's like, you think that people are coming from this sort of religious framework, but actually there's so much openness understanding that can come from people who really sink into maybe the compassion and the care of their religion. Yeah and, yeah and, I mean, this was obviously a very richly textured person who'd done a lot in his life also, and all the writing, it also probably helped with the feedback. But like he didn't. He didn't need to engage with me like he did. Yeah and, and to be so again, generous. I think a lot of it comes back to generosity. Yeah? For me, yeah.

Holly Newson  32:46

Did you exchange the rest of your draft?

Eva Oh  32:49

He asked to see it. Yeah, yeah. Mine is with legal now, because my people are not the Dalai Lama

Eva Oh  33:01

being good and all of that. So we need to protect them. But once that's done, I said I would send it to him.

Holly Newson  33:11

Do you think he'll have further notes?

Eva Oh  33:14

I feel like he's a note giver. Yeah, yeah.

Holly Newson  33:18

Did you have notes on his?

Eva Oh  33:20

No!

Eva Oh  33:22

The man's written, like, 20 books or something like this, and like, this is my first, and I'm fumbling around the dark. I just said, I did actually say to him, because you could really tell, like, also, I was like, it's, this is an offering, isn't it? Like, he did this to give to people. He didn't give it to, like, jerk off. You know, like a lot of writers, yeah, it was like, you could tell that he just wanted the person to receive something magical from it, just from his right, just from the intro, yeah. And he didn't say yes or no, but he just sort of like nodded, and then I think I said, You're so generous. I told him that, but that was my only feedback. I have no feedback. You do your thing. I hope when I'm 75 I will be able to also be that good.

Holly Newson  34:09

You said at the start of this that you weren't sure about getting into the whole conversation. Are you someone who do you find yourself in conversations with people you know, out and about, like on a plane? Are you someone who's who's having a chat on a plane? Or is that pretty rare?

Eva Oh  34:25

Nope, I am avoiding it all. I'm wearing a hat. I don't want to talk to anybody like this is not a conversation that I need to have right now, because everybody wants to end up talking about your work, you know, and there's only so many people, I think, who can do that in an engaging, creative way that I haven't done a million times before. You know, I come on the podcast. I'll do the interview. I do the my own podcast. I write the book. I'm telling that story so that I don't have to repeat myself like on the plane. I just, I just want to chill, please. Yeah. I mean it. Turned out into an incredible thing in that one instance. But until I feel like it might get to that point where it becomes a valuable exchange for me too, I'm going to avoid it, because it's tiring, and you can tell, I guess, when somebody's ready for the information, how they might react to it. I guess after all of these years, you can kind of see where they're at in their own sexuality and in their relationship to their identity. And you're like, you're not ready for this. I am retired. What did you used to do strategic consulting? Oh, must have gone very well. Yes.

Holly Newson  35:41

Short and sweet|!

Eva Oh  35:44

She doesn't know how to make conversation. Yuck. All right, I'll just go back to my TV or whatever.

Holly Newson  35:49

Great. So on a sort of related note, what's the kindest thing you've ever done for yourself?

Eva Oh  35:57

Meditation practice, for sure, because it taught me another voice. So like the style that I do is Vipassana, and it's all about just observing the sensation, and you can start to translate that into observing your thought, like what you were thinking. And so it's kind of like you have this experiencing voice, and then you have the observing voice. And I think that now that I have the observing voice, I can be, like, it's okay, like, you don't have to do that. Like, I know that's very, very hard, you know? So I have, like, a very strong, like, extra voice there for me, and I think that's been such an asset in my life.

Holly Newson  36:40

Is that observing voice a kind voice? In a way that some thoughts that pop in are not always.

Eva Oh  36:48

Yeah, because some of the because the practice is, um, I mean, I've been doing this for a long time, so it takes time. So there's a big part of the practice, which is about observing and just like the sensations. And then there's a there's a crux of the practice, like towards the end of each session, that's about sending out kindness and love.

Holly Newson  37:07

So what changed in your life when you started that?

Eva Oh  37:11

I think I was quite anxious about a lot of a lot you know, about finances, about walking in the street, about being approached. Now I might still feel that, but then I can also be like, Yeah, you're feeling that. And hey, that's cool. It will pass. We can take our time to, like, dissolve that feeling. It's absolutely fine, completely valid, yeah. And so I think that's been the best thing.

Holly Newson  37:39

Takes away the anxiety about the anxiety,

Eva Oh  37:42

yeah, it's like, you have someone in your corner. It's you, but it helps. Yeah, I think they do that also in therapy. It's probably something you can learn that, like, in a way which doesn't take sitting painfully for 1000s of hours.

Holly Newson  37:57

But how often do you practice?

Eva Oh  37:59

Two hours a day,

Holly Newson  38:00

okay, wow.

Eva Oh  38:01

And then you disappear for like, a week a month every year.

Holly Newson  38:04

Wow,

Eva Oh  38:04

ideally, yeah.

Holly Newson  38:06

So it's a real, like, you have to dedicate your time and your effort to really keeping that practice up.

Eva Oh  38:12

And it's like, technically, you should be doing it constantly, as in, like, observing, observing, we're observing.

Holly Newson  38:20

And so where do you for that week? Once a month? Where do you where do you go?

Eva Oh  38:23

I'm lucky that they have places around the world, so it's just wherever I'm sort of near at the moment. So it's 10 days minimum. Well, you can do two or five days, but 10 is nice. Wow. And it's silent. So there's no looking people in the eye, there's no reading, writing, gesturing, there's nothing. It's just you in dark rooms or in a hall with other people sitting quietly.

Holly Newson  38:43

So that's all that space that you like,

Eva Oh  38:46

So yeah,

Holly Newson  38:47

crave.

Eva Oh  38:48

Yeah, and you can create it in yourself, but I don't come out of any holiday more refreshed than after a silent retreat. Yeah, yeah. And I'm very also grateful for that.

Holly Newson  39:01

Is that gratitude something that has come with the meditation, or is that something you've always felt?

Eva Oh  39:06

No, I think I've always had that. Where would that have come from? Probably my family, like, we've been through all sorts of states of like financial distress, or however, together, but, and, but we can always enjoy little things, finding many little things amusing and also knowing how to play. I think my grandfather, especially was very good at being very playful, and I think that that just probably just brings a lot of joy to kids.

Holly Newson  39:32

I think silliness and playfulness should never be let go of it reminds you what what matters. I feel that in my own life a lot, if there's something serious going on, or something that feels stressful, something that I'm worried about, just being silly and playful, it just takes it all away. You're like, oh, this is all the construct that I can laugh and that's fine,

Eva Oh  39:55

yeah, yeah. What happened the other day is just like feeling like my sillium husk, like, exploded in my kitchen, like, five minutes before I had to go on a call, and I immediately went to laughing, which I hadn't actually done before. I wonder what sort of happened with that. I think it's because my mother was just visiting, and she was laughing at me constantly. So that's probably it, because I live like a crazy like, everything is perfect, you know, I said something like, I didn't like that. It was there, she started laughing at me. And I think that's probably inspired how ridiculous I am, perhaps. But yeah, I think to be able to get straight to the even just seeing the whole, you know, life and as something that can be really ridiculous, yeah, I think is, is a helpful thing also, and a lot of fun, yeah? A lot of fun, yeah?

Holly Newson  40:46

Well, thank you. Thank you. Such a great pleasure to meet. Thank you.

Eva Oh  40:50

Love the format.

Holly Newson  40:51

Thank you!

Music  40:58

Hey, hold on, I'll stay here till it goes.

Holly Newson  41:06

Thank you so much for listening. You being here, and your support means so much to me. A Tibetan Lama, a fantastic mum and a generous work colleague who just happens to be a dominatrix, this episode had it all, and it also made me feel like when we put our faith in someone to share what's really going on in our lives, there's a chance that something really lovely can come out of that. This episode is dedicated to anyone who has understood us when we shared who we really are. Maybe share the episode with one of those people in your life, or someone else who might love it. I would also love to hear a story from you about a time someone was kind to you. So send that in at kind podcast.com or email me Holly at kind podcast.com and I will feature some of the stories on the show. If you like the show, hit subscribe. Give a rating, give a review. It helps me a lot. It was great to spend time with you. Speak soon!

Music  42:07

dream on and let your heart unfold.