She took me to AA | Cathy Rentzenbrink

Cathy Rentzenbrink  00:00

She just has really kind eyes. She's got kind hair. She's got yeah. She's got really kind teeth, kind smile. And of all the people I've ever met, she's the one who is the most intelligent, but also the most kind in the same package.

Holly Newson  00:18

Hi, I'm Holly, and I am so glad you're here. This is Kind, a show about the times people received an act of kindness and how that changed things. In this episode, you'll hear all the ways that a glass of water can solve our problems. By the way, you smell great. Right, let me introduce you to someone. You're about to hear from Sunday Times best-selling author Cathy Rentzenbrink, who has written in various ways about grief, love, heartache, and finding some solace and comfort to cheer yourself up. Not least in her latest book, The Agatha Christie Cure. Cathy, welcome.

Cathy Rentzenbrink  00:58

It's very nice to be here.

Holly Newson  01:00

Delightful to have you. So my first question to you is, what does being kind mean to you?

Cathy Rentzenbrink  01:08

Well, I mean, I think kindness is extremely important. I think it's the most important thing. It's not always the big flashy things. I think there's a way of trying to live in a kind way, to be kind when you can, to be kind according to what you are capable of in the moment, which sometimes also might not be that much, and to always look. I like looking for opportunities for what I call guerrilla kindness, which is where you can just sort of just do some small, modest, kind action. That one's usually for strangers, like just help them with something that they're struggling with, like on the train or something, and then you just, you know, that's your only interaction with them. But you've been a kind presence in their life.

Holly Newson  01:47

Yeah. So I really like that way of referring to a gorilla kindness. I've never thought of it like that. The other day I was on the DLR, and a woman had realized she missed her stop just as the doors closed, and you could tell she was like, oh, she was really annoyed with herself, and I took out an earbud and I said, did exactly the same thing last week.

Cathy Rentzenbrink  02:07

That's exactly it.

Holly Newson  02:08

Yeah, she was like, oh, I was just distracted, and and I was like, 100% happens to the best of us. And you know, it's just those little moments that if you're on the lookout,

Cathy Rentzenbrink  02:16

a little bit of fellow feeling, a little bit you just made her feel a little bit less alone. It's a really good, interesting example because you couldn't practically do anything to help the situation, but you made it feel a little bit better about it. Yeah, yeah, I really love that.

Holly Newson  02:28

Yeah, I like guerrilla kindness though because that's like you're watching, you're you're in the wild and you're watching.

Cathy Rentzenbrink  02:33

Yeah, and I sort of like the fact that it it is almost like a bit. It's anonymous. Also, I wouldn't it wouldn't work if I started like I don't know. Probably almost wouldn't work if I started writing about it. If I started writing like today, I was kind to this stranger. Go me! Like it's it's really secret and private, and like nobody's watching. And just you know, and I'm sure I often miss opportunities to do it because I'll be too busy or I'll whatever I could have helped. But I do always try to help people if I can.

Holly Newson  02:58

Yeah. So each time a guest comes on this show, I ask them to have a think about three times people have done something kind for them. So will you start by telling me in this specific instance where you were and what was going on at the time?

Cathy Rentzenbrink  03:12

Yeah. So I was in this quite like posh place on Soho. I was meeting editors who were interested in publishing my first book, which was about the death of my brother. So again, like quite a full-on thing, and also like it was amazing. I couldn't believe that people wanted to publish my book. This was all good news, and I was and I loved all the people I met. And so then I was talking to who she became my editor called Francesca, and I don't quite know what happened. The weather was hot. We were talking, and then it's almost like I don't know if something came on in the breeze. Suddenly, I kind of slightly, almost like choked. I could feel something in my throat, and I looked down at the table, and my water glass was empty. And this is all happening really fast.

Holly Newson  03:57

Yeah.

Cathy Rentzenbrink  03:58

And Francesca just leant down. She picked up her own water glass, which was full, and she just leant over and she just gave it to me, and I drank from it. And it was so-it was just like an instinctive thing. It took almost no time, but in that moment, I did think, I thought this woman is so kind, like, and I just knew-I sort of knew from that that she would continue to be kind of like kind and practical.

Holly Newson  04:24

Yes. How many times had you met her before this?

Cathy Rentzenbrink  04:29

Not many. Like I didn't know her very well. There was just something I don't know so elemental about the way she just saw I needed and gave it to me. Yeah. There was no, and I think there wasn't. It wasn't. She wasn't sort of like, oh, you poor thing, or she wasn't like, oh, what's happened? Was none of that. She just saw me look for my water and not find it, and just handed it to me. And there was just something about that. And then, yeah. So this is now what about 12 years ago, probably 12 or 13 years ago. She's done many kindnesses for me, and. But it was just something about that, that moment and the importance of it somehow, and the wordlessness nature of it. I think just seeing a need that another person has that you can just supply doing it.

Holly Newson  05:14

Paint a picture of Francesca for me.

Cathy Rentzenbrink  05:17

She's a wonderful woman. She has, again, she just has really kind eyes. I could carry on describing it. She's got kind hair. She's got you know, she's got really kind teeth, kind smile, and and she's super, super, super bright, obviously, and I think of all the people I've ever met, she's the one who is the most intelligent, but also the most kind in the same package. Because intelligent people aren't always kind, and kind people aren't always intelligent. That's fine, isn't it?

Holly Newson  05:44

Yeah.

Cathy Rentzenbrink  05:44

But there's something about the combination of those qualities that I think is really powerful and quite unusual. And she's the the highest exemplar, I would say, of those things that I've that I've ever met.

Holly Newson  05:58

So in Francesca handing you that glass of water, I'm curious what impact that had on either you, but maybe on how that relationship developed?

Cathy Rentzenbrink  06:11

Well, I think because we she edited my first book, which is about the death of my brother, and at the time I'd written it, but it was you know her editorial work wasn't just sort of like, oh yeah, I'll just you know make that sentence a bit shorter. Like it was a significant editorial job, and she made the book much better. And she basically, I think, sort of held me kindly, but also skillfully, so that I could write a better book and sort of make the most of it. And then she just always felt again like a really guiding presence because you write a book and then you talk about a book. So it was very high octane experience, and I felt that she was always sort of there with me. I mean, often physically there with me, but even if not physically there with me, this sort of presence, which actually I think is another thing about kindness. When people are kind, I can sort of like think about them in their absence and get a bit of a benefit from it. Like, so I think there was just something really stabilizing and grounding about having her in my corner and sort of feeling like that. And I still do actually in that you know, and I've published other things with other people. She's not always she's not always like professionally involved with me in that sense. I but I still have this enduring feeling that she's in my corner. She's wishing me well. I'm wishing her well. This sort of this reciprocal. I mean, I think it's a lot. It's a love, and it and it's professionally linked, but equally it exists alongside that. Like I want, I hope for all the good things for her, and and I know that she hopes for all the good things for me, and that just feels like a real blissful benefit. I also, of course, that was right at the beginning of writing books, and I still feel I'm always grateful to anyone who gives me a glass of water. And I think people will probably be surprised to know how often I am. Probably other people who like end up in situations where they're talking for a living, where you don't have one, like because you've always get one. Like we've got water now. If you do an event, there'll be water on the table. But sometimes when it's a bit more freestyle, yeah, I've started chatting to people or whatever, and I'll suddenly be like ragingly thirsty. But it always feels a bit rude, especially if people are telling you a really personal thing. Yeah, it's then really it feels a bit rude to say I am interested in this, but I'm also really thirsty, and so some and people will just clock it and then bring me, you know, if anybody who brings me any kind of drink, I always feel like incredibly grateful to. It became quite a big thing as well in the novel I wrote later, which is called Ordinary Time, which is about a sort of a sad and lonely vicar's wife, and I realize that like part of what she just loves about this person who becomes quite important to her is he's just always making sure that she hydrates

Holly Newson  08:55

Our basic human needs.

Cathy Rentzenbrink  08:57

Basic human needs

Holly Newson  08:57

Someone to make sure that we do them

Cathy Rentzenbrink  08:59

Yeah to make sure that you do that, and so I think again, anyone just kind of, you know, why don't you just have a glass of water? And I think, I think it's always a good thing. Obviously, it's nice if someone else does it for you, but you can also be kind to yourself with it. Like, and I think it's really important, especially if you're in a before taking any action, especially of the you know negative kind, or actually in any kind of distress. Now I just have a glass of water straight away.

Holly Newson  09:26

It's very smart.

Cathy Rentzenbrink  09:27

And in a conflict, if you feel a bit conflicty with someone else, again, you have to be on good enough terms so that you can say, "Do you think we should both have a glass of water? Because if if you're not, then of course that's not always a helpful intervention either. But but it can be a really good thing to do. Just let's pause. Let's just have a glass of water. We'll remember we love each other slash whatever it is. I've got a friend whose daughter's in her 20s now, but she's always still saying to her daughter rings up, and at some point my friend says like, "Is there a banana nearby? Like she just she just knows if she could be with. In person, she'd just be kind of like trying to feed some slices into her, and so we're all really, you know, often I think we're really bad at it, and everyone's bad at it, like bad at that thing of you know just actually making sure that we've that we've got the the most basic things that we need.

Holly Newson  10:17

Yeah, you'd think we'd grow up and suddenly we become adults who are fully functioning, but I don't think any adults are really fully functioning.

Cathy Rentzenbrink  10:24

I never feel like that. No, I mean, I'm 53, and I still feel like almost completely incapable of just looking after myself. And my son's 17 now, and he did. He said to me the other day, like, it is a miracle, isn't it, that you did manage to kind of somehow, like, I think I was like failing to get through a door, and he was saying, like you know, it's a miracle, isn't it? I think as well, thinking about like the water, like the basic need stuff, the care. I think for so for me, kindness is definitely around care, and it's not about like, oh, not that I'd hate it if people gave me a present. I don't want to put people on in a nice stationery or whatever. But actually, like I don't need I don't need gifts so much as I'm just always really grateful for any kind of care.

Holly Newson  11:12

So can you tell me a time that someone did something kind for you?

Jacob  11:16

So I used to be a terrible person at saying no to anything, and it got to the point where, well, I know now I was on the point of burnout, but I didn't know that at the time. And then one of my really close friends to me came to me and was like, "I can see you're like saying yes to too much." So we had a really great conversation about me saying no, and now I say no more, and I have much better relationships with everybody in my life.

Holly Newson  11:39

That is, that's a huge act of kindness. What did it feel like the first time you said no?

Jacob  11:43

Well, it still is a very strange feeling for me to say no. But yeah, it's just I think it's knowing what benefit it brings to my life.

Holly Newson  11:54

And does that friend know what that has meant to you?

Jacob  11:58

Well, yeah. I mean, we've we've had conversations since, and I think he's getting better at saying no as well now to things. So yeah, it's an ongoing conversation. But yeah,

Holly Newson  12:08

I love that mutual support. And can you tell me what your name is?

Jacob  12:11

Jacob.

Holly Newson  12:12

Jacob, thank you so much.

Holly Newson  12:18

So moving on to your second story of kindness for this one. Tell me what was going on in your life at the time more broadly.

Cathy Rentzenbrink  12:27

Yes, so I had I'd always been a very big drinker of alcohol since being quite young. Lots of my family are big drinkers of alcohol, often not very happily, and I'd finally decided to become a sober person, and it's just really hard. And I am now. This is it was 2017, so it's a lot of years now. And I now am a like I'm a really happy sober person. I really like being sober. I'm so pleased about it. But what I remember about the kindness was just in those early times. The bit I found most difficult was saying no,

Holly Newson  13:06

Right

Cathy Rentzenbrink  13:07

Like there being drink there, having to say no, and I found that incredibly hard. And I tried to moderate for about three years before giving up. I tried to moderate, and I'd learned some interesting things. Like I'm much better at none than I am at some

Holly Newson  13:21

right.

Cathy Rentzenbrink  13:21

Like I don't like stopping.

Holly Newson  13:23

Yeah,

Cathy Rentzenbrink  13:24

it wasn't so much that I'd be walking down the street and suddenly want to dive into that pub. But if I'm in a situation where there is alcohol, really hard to say no. And I think part of that is this really good therapy, which is about feeling states. Basically, the idea is that we we really just want to feel particular ways. Yeah. And so, what alcohol the feeling estate I associated with alcohol was love and belonging. So, in a situation where there was alcohol and there were people, I wanted to have the drink because then that would make me feel I was kind of like drinking from the wider cup, which was the love and belonging that everybody was experiencing there. I know that not everybody was. You know, some people might want the person next to me wanting the drink. They might be wanting to escape, or they might be wanting other things. But certainly for me, it was this feeling of love and belonging I was after, and also that. I mean, I did. I always felt really good after about two drinks. It's such a shame that I couldn't moderate in a way because I felt I felt really good on two or three drinks. That wasn't the problem, and I never really did bad things in with drink. It was just that I'd make I made myself ill. Yeah. So the kindness was, and I and they're both writers, and and I'm going to not say who they are, which in a way is a shame. But the thing in AA is you don't. I think they. I think that they're both public about this, but I'm not 100 sure. Yeah. So I won't say who they are. So the first one was I had so writer who I'd only met once before, and then we met because she was interviewing me about a thing, and I I think it was like a few days sober at this point, and she just said. Come to an AA meeting with me, and she just took me off to an AA meeting with her, and I just thought that was so incredibly kind.

Holly Newson  15:06

Yeah.

Cathy Rentzenbrink  15:06

And then she would just check in. She also came. I was about to have a launch party, which again, normally my normal way of operating would be to drink a lot of my launch party. She also came with another sober friend at the launch party, and just kind of again, like anchored, anchored that sobriety into the launch party for me in a really, like sort of invisibly. Like I knew why she was there. Also, she was quite like that wasn't really an easy thing for her to do either at that time. So again, I just thought that was incredibly kind.

Holly Newson  15:39

Yeah. How did you feel about going to that first AA meeting?

Cathy Rentzenbrink  15:44

I mean, it was all quite overwhelming in a way, and I didn't. I've not AA actually hasn't been a huge part of my of my thing. Like, it works really well for some people, and sort of less so for others. I always like the fact that it's there. Like, and I'm a long way now from. I always feel a little. It feels a little bit like tempting fate to say it, but it is true. Like, I feel. I feel very comfortable and confident in my sobriety. Yeah. I don't worry that I would drink. Actually, in the early days, though, it was really helpful to know. Like sometimes, because again, I was on this book tour, so it was. I would sometimes, when I was going to a new place, I would look up where the AA meetings were and know that there was one. Like I'd know which street it was in, and then I'd sit in the hotel room thinking, "Well, I could go there if I wanted. And I didn't usually go, but I liked the fact that it existed. Yeah. One of the interesting things as well about it, if you if you drink a lot and you everyone you know are drinkers, which they sort of were, it's almost like you need a new peer group. And I probably just found that like in other ways, not necessarily in AA, but there's something there's a great relief in just being with other sober people and not having to in a funny kind of way, you don't explain what I always found really difficult. And actually, I have people in my life who still do this, which I just think is awful. There are people who only really understand it as a problem if you do actively unsocial bad behavior. Like, so I didn't kind of like get hammered and smash things and start fights. And because of that, some people were a bit were a bit sort of like, oh, you were more fun before, like that kind of thing, which is just awful. Yeah. And so it was just really helpful not to be questioned. Yeah. It seems insane to me that anyone would question anyone who says they're not going to drink alcohol anymore. Yeah. But actually, people did a bit.

Holly Newson  17:41

Yeah, I find it a very-it's a very strange. I don't-and I don't know how much of it is like certain countries, cultures. But in the same way, as if someone offered you a snack and you were like, "Oh no." Like you shouldn't have to explain why you don't want that particular snack, whether you're intolerant, you don't like it, or you're just not hungry. Like it's such a funny thing to to have to explain because even if you're not drinking very, even if you're drinking one, and then someone goes, "Oh, have another, and you're like, "No, no, I'm all right. Whoa, why won't you have another?" Like it is a very strange. Like I say, I don't know if it's cultural thing that to have to go through, and I think it does make having like kind people who you know will come to your book launch and just you know that they're there extra important in case that other thing rears its head.

Cathy Rentzenbrink  18:35

It's so weird. I had I've just remembered this. So I'm at some kind of launch party with my glass of water. Often as well. It's really difficult to get a glass of water, so you can get all the booze. Like all the booze is there sometimes on like shiny silver trays. Again, that's a weakness of mine. I always feel it's like my ancestors, and I come from a long line of nobodies. Like nobody had anything. I always feel my ancestors are lined up, like pushing me forward. It's like go on, go on, take it while you can. It's like run out. Have it, have it. So again, the silver trays, the posh of the booze, basically, the harder it was for me to say no. So I was at something like that with my glass of water, and this woman said to me, "I think I know your secret. I was sort of like, "What? And then she was kind of like doing these weird gestures, and I realized that she thought I was pregnant, and that's why I was drinking the water, and I just, and it was just like so weird. And I said, and again, I didn't even mean to be, I didn't mean to be mean. And nor am I saying like, so it was a horrible experience for me. But I'm not really even blaming her necessarily. I said something like, I've just never deflated from my first child, and yeah, I've just stopped drinking because, you know, I just drink too much. I mean, it's just all-I didn't quite know what to say. It was just terrible. And oh, again, like oh, just feels like it would be much better place if people could just drink water, and we don't have to ask them questions about it.

Holly Newson  19:55

So, what impact did it have on you at the start of sobriety to have those people? There who got it, but also got it in a way where they were very present in their support.

Cathy Rentzenbrink  20:07

I think it was just really helpful, and I think often there are things in life where I think of it often like a seesaw, right? So on the whole, giving up drinking, there were loads of things on the bad side of the seesaw. I just needed a few things to put on the other side of the seesaw to sort of balance it out a bit, and I did have therapy, which was helpful. The other thing that was really helpful was I had an Israeli therapist, not even for very long, but he was really helpful about the fact of how of the cultural element of it, because he said most of the people he'd just grown up like without alcohol. It's like not even a thing.

Holly Newson  20:41

Yeah,

Cathy Rentzenbrink  20:41

and he felt that English people drank so that they can say what they really mean. That I mean, that was incredibly useful because then I just thought, ah, I'm not going to wait any. I'm not going to wait. I think that's probably what I've been doing. I've needed alcohol to give me the permission to say what I really think and what I really mean. I'm just going to have to learn how to do that without the alcohol. So that was really helpful.

Victoria  21:11

Hey, Holly, my name's Victoria. So at a time when somebody's been kind to me, well, actually, it was multiple people. So I, you can probably tell from my accent. I'm from Northern England near Manchester, and I had gone on to a retreat in Cornwall. I drove my car six hours and had a lovely time at the retreat. And then afterwards, I decided to stop off at Falmer because I'd heard good things about the place, and I'd got this accommodation, kind of like a homestay type thing, and I'd driven my car and parked it there. And the previous night, I'd actually had a few beers, so it was a bit hazy. And that day, I realized, oh my gosh, my car key isn't in my bag, and I have no idea where it was. Turned my room upside down five times. Looked all around the place I was staying. Was walking around the streets crying because I basically had to leave that place the next day. I just was so overwhelmed and posted on Farmer Facebook group, basically asking people, "Has anyone seen my car key? And I was just remember being completely overwhelmed with how many messages I got from people who were trying to help me at a time when I was losing faith in humanity due to like various things going on in my life and feeling really let down and disappointed by people, I felt like I had my faith in the kindness and goodness of people restored. I had offers to stay at somebody's house. I had offers to go out looking for the keys with somebody with a metal detector, and even one woman that owned a cookery school in Manchester, whose daughter was at Falmouth University, said that I could come to her cookery school because of the stress of the situation for a day for free, something that would have cost like 100 quid. So, eventually, I actually did find the key, and it turned out basically the cleaner had taken it, so yeah, I think what was a really stressful situation turned out to be quite a positive one. It kind of made me think that Falmouth is one place I would really like to live.

Holly Newson  24:02

So moving on to your third act of kindness. For this one, before you say what it is, tell me why this specific thing, which, for a little bit of context, is something that people can do most days. Why it means so much to you?

Cathy Rentzenbrink  24:19

I think that there are often times when things are difficult, and any any kind of like signal from other human beings that they are not angry with you is quite nice. Like any signal from human beings that they're not in a bad mood with you, that they not they didn't think that you're ruining their life. Any kind of acknowledgement that you're a person probably trying to do their best, even if something is difficult, I think that's useful.

Holly Newson  24:50

Okay, so tell me what this kind of thing is.

Cathy Rentzenbrink  24:52

So this is when you are with a child, like from a baby, and actually any age, and again, straight. Are just kind to you when you're with that child. So whether whether you've got like a crying baby somewhere, or even like the I mean the child doesn't have to be distressed. Like so like so you sit next to someone on a train, and if they are nice and kind of like make faces at your child, like it's all that sort of thing, ranging from again not kind of like visibly moaning and tutting when you get on with your child, which a surprising amount of people do. And although I think I can understand, like in lots of ways, if I'm traveling on my own and wanting to get some work done, it's not the best thing for me either. If the if the you know the family with the crying baby and the hyper you know sort of the very lively toddler get on, so I understand that. But I think there's just something important about being almost like a bigger human being in that moment. And I think people can be really, really unkind about small children and the difficulties of being with them. As a friend of mine said recently, she always remembers being something, and the woman said to her, "Can't you control your child?" and she was like, "No, I can't." I don't know what you think it's like. Yeah, I don't know what you think this deal is, but no, I absolutely can't. So, so I think like kindness like that is amazing. And if you do drop on, I remember having a particular train journey, which was from London to Cornwall. My son was probably about 18, months. Very lively. I mean, like really lovely, like extremely lively, and just we just dropped on so happily that the people on the train were just nice. Yeah, because I think I think as well, children really pick up on stress. I didn't even realize this as much at the time. I get it more now. So if everybody's tutting and staring at me like I'm a monster because because I've basically like got a child with me even before he's really done anything, and I become stressed. Then it is more likely that my toddler will misbehave. I think that's what that's what I think now. So it does help everybody if everyone is calm and friendly and behaves like decent and thoughtful human beings. So it's it's really important.

Holly Newson  27:05

What did it feel like when you know you have a young child and you get on a train and you know someone gives up their seat and that like what does it feel like in in that moment?

Cathy Rentzenbrink  27:14

Well, it always felt amazing to me because also I know this this isn't like everyone's experience, but potentially a woman with a baby, not always, might have just had like like quite a big surgery, but also has to look after this baby.

Holly Newson  27:27

Yeah,

Cathy Rentzenbrink  27:27

and so when people are nice, it's it's just sort of massive, and because of course standing up on a train is so hard, and standing up if you've got any kind of injury is much harder, and standing up if you've got any injury, holding a weight is quite hard, and standing up with an injury holding a weight that has now woken up and wants things from you is all quite hard. Yeah.

Cathy Rentzenbrink  27:51

So one of my guerrilla kindnesses actually is with is with push like people with pushchairs on public transport, helping them on, helping them off, like all that kind of things.

Holly Newson  28:00

And so, I mean, you've kind of touched on it, but these acts of kindness around you in the environment, on trains, on public transport-what impact do they have on you, well, when you were younger and had a young kid, but also now?

Cathy Rentzenbrink  28:14

I think it just makes you feel like you're all in it together, which I think is a really nice way to feel. And there's anything that's isolating, I think, is bad, and I think judgment is terrible. And so often, what this kindness is, is an absence of judgment.

Holly Newson  28:29

I would love to chat to you a little bit about what kindness you have discovered from Agatha Christie in writing your book, The Agatha Christie Cure. So, what kindness has she given you?

Cathy Rentzenbrink  28:41

Well, she gave me the first kindness was that she wrote lots of books and they're really good and they're sort of comforting. And there's something brilliant about her books. I think overall, like the sensibility of them just is kind. Like you can just tell she's there's just a decent human being consciousness somehow working behind them. Obviously, people are murdering each other. So, but I wanted things to read that were like comforting and easy. I didn't want anything violent, anything distressing. You know, I mean, and life was just just difficult, which is why I wanted comfort reading. You know, things had gone well. I was really worried about my dad and his health, and my son was really unhappy at school, and my marriage was sort of like limping on unhappily, and I didn't know what to do about it. That was just the personal stuff, you know. The world felt very difficult and frightening, and everything felt very overwhelming. So that all felt, you know, so it felt really nice to take refuge. Felt like I was taking refuge with Agatha in the 20th century. There's also something really nice, I think, as well about crime. Reading a mystery as a way to turn the pages, because I sort of I like the basic setup, which is like here's a situation, everything's rather nice. Maybe we're in a big country house, or maybe we're on holiday. You know, maybe people are going on their honeymoon. And there's all these different people, and it's all very, very nice. And of course, because you're reading the book, you know what you've signed up for, which is that sooner or later-and it's probably sooner-someone's going to end up dead, and there's then going to be this, what's happened. And what I just really love about them is that then there's this puzzle, and then you engage in this puzzle, but then at the end, when it all gets sorted out, it's just this really nice feeling of order restored, and that's the feeling I like when you get to the end of a crime novel. Like, ah, sort of feels like relaxing. Yeah, and I try. I don't know when I start doing it, but I really try and do that in my books. I want. I think a lot about the reader. I want the reader to have a good time.

Holly Newson  30:38

Yeah.

Cathy Rentzenbrink  30:39

I want the reader to feel kindly treated, and I want the reader when they close the book. I want them to sort of go like, ah, that sort of thing. I want them to feel like, oh yeah, I've had an experience, and now it's closed. Order has been restored. I sort of want that. I kind of want that feeling. So I feel she's really good at Delivering that, but then also the books are very psychologically rich, and there's then there is also an awful lot of kindness within them. So even though the murder of mysteries, people are often like doing kind things or trying to be kind or trying to be decent human beings, and she writes a lot about hope, which I think I think there's something with hope and kindness. I think together, like I would say, often when I've been on the receiving end of kindness for people, it makes me feel hopeful. So there's always a lot of that going through the books, and this sort of this hopefulness. There's a lovely one. It's called The Moving Finger, and at the end of that as well, I really like the way that there's a character who, again, she hasn't murdered anyone, but she's behaved really badly and possibly criminally in it, but she hasn't murdered anyone. And at the end, I guess it just sends her off on a cruise, and again, it's so kind. Like, and you just feel like, yes, she's seen the loneliness in this poor woman, and she's she's managed to kind of like pull her back from the brink,

Holly Newson  32:06

yeah,

Cathy Rentzenbrink  32:06

and managed to kind of dispatch her happily onto some something else.

Holly Newson  32:11

And so, my last question to you: What is the kindest thing you've ever done for yourself?

Cathy Rentzenbrink  32:17

Oh, I mean, honestly, at the moment, I do think maybe it was deciding to read Agatha, and I think it was. And of course, as it's turned out, I have it has become a book. But in the moment, because it wasn't in the moment,

Holly Newson  32:33

yeah,

Cathy Rentzenbrink  32:34

I just decided. For I was so tired, exhausted, overwhelmed. I was stuck writing a novel. I just decided to. It was before Christmas, which I don't really like. I decided to turn my computer and my phone off for at least four days, and that's when I thought, I know, I'll read Agatha, and I actually think it was that. So outside of the context of then it becoming a book later, I think it was just that that decision. I can just do something that I would really like to do, and I remember the feeling of it so strongly. I thought I just would like to run a bath and get into it with The Mysterious Affair at Styles, and just like read a book just for the comfort of it, with no like that's just what I'm going to do. And I just did it, and yeah, and it felt really, really, really nice. It probably would be my, it would be my treat, like a curl up, weather dependent, like under a you know in a in the in a nice warm bath or on the sofa under a blanket with an ice book, or again on the grass under an apple tree, maybe yeah, like eating apples and reading a book, just feels so good. Yeah, that's

Holly Newson  33:46

I had my first bath of the of the season, and I took your book into the bath.

Holly Newson  33:56

Wow! Did you?

Cathy Rentzenbrink  33:57

So yeah, just the other day. So there we go.

Cathy Rentzenbrink  33:59

See, this is the miracle of books. I read a bath. I read a book in the bath. It leads to a book. Other people read that in the bath. I really love. I really love that.

Holly Newson  34:10

Well, Cathy, thank you so much for coming to chat. It's been such a joy to speak to you.

Cathy Rentzenbrink  34:15

What a pleasure! What a pleasure.

Music  34:18

Hey, hold on. I'll stay here til it goes.

Holly Newson  34:26

Thank you so much for listening. You being here and your support means a lot to me. Kathy and I actually went for a coffee after this episode and chatted for hours. It was deeply nourishing for the soul, and I have no doubt that the kindness that she's got from Agatha has been passed on to others in so many different ways. This episode is dedicated to anyone who's always there, ready with a glass of water, a cup of tea, or other beverage of choice. Share the episode with someone like that in your life, or someone else who might enjoy it. I would also love to hear a story. From you about a time someone was kind to you, so send that in at kindpodcast.com, or you can email me holly@kindpodcast.com, and I will feature some of your stories on the show. If you like the show, hit subscribe, give it a follow, a rating, a review, all that stuff helps me a lot. It was great to spend time with you. Speak soon.